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SkylerS
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Topic: Testing above kits parameters Posted: February 21 2012 at 2:17pm |
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I have a salifert test kit for magnesium and it only goes to 1500. I'm trying to raise it to 1700 kent M to kill some bryopsis. It's starting to work and i'm not quite to 1500 yet. Thanks for the help guys!
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SkylerS
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 3:36pm |
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The instructions are add 2ml of water add 5 drops of reagant 1 add 1 scoop of reageant 2 Take up 1 mL of reagant three and add 1 drop at a time until color from purple to blue. I added the entire 1 mL and it changed to blue so my mag is currently at 1500 and I'm at the max of the test.
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MIK3B
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 4:10pm |
I acquired some "special fern looking algae" when buying some live rock from a board member a while back and just thought it was macro/hair algae...In the past I've had pretty good luck eradicating hair and other nuisance algae from my tanks in the past by out competing it with macroalgae, making sure to change my light bulbs regularly and making sure my RO water was really low in TDS/lowering phosphates and silicates etc, but I've had a hard time with this particular algae. Did a little research and determined that I too have bryopsis. So besides adding a lettuce Nudibranch or a good Tang I've been thinking about doing this too. Here's a good RC link where a few folks had success. And another, specifically touting Kent's Tech M and Mag Sulfates. Got my BRS Magnesium Chloride today and have a bunch of Mag Sulfate at home too so I am going to increase my levels slowly per RFH: From Randy Holmes-Farley: I suggest targeting the natural seawater concentration of magnesium: ~1285 ppm. For practical purposes, 1250-1350 ppm is fine, and levels slightly outside that range (1200-1400 ppm) are also likely acceptable. I would not suggest raising magnesium by more than 100 ppm per day, in case the magnesium supplement contains impurities. If you need to raise it by several hundred ppm, spreading the addition over several days will allow you to more accurately reach the target concentration, and might possibly allow the aquarium to handle any impurities that the supplement contains. I personally have had a hard time keeping my Mag up at 1300 where I like it. I've used the Seachem Pro line (Ions?) liquid mag, BRS mag sulfate and mag chloride and have NEO Mag in my CA Reactor but it won't dissolve at the same pH as my CA media so I doubt it's adding much, if any. IIRC, you can halve the amount of sample water and then times the result by 2 to get a higher (or was it a more accurate?) result or use half your test kit? It's in the printed literature that came with my test kit at home...but I won't be home for hours. Maybe someone else will chime in in the meantime - and MAYBE they'll have experience with accurately testing elevated Mag levels AND killing Bryopsis.
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ReefdUp
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 5:02pm |
Do the test as normal. When you get to the end of the 1ml syringe, fill it back up. Measure how much it takes from that second 1ml syringe to get the color change. Say it took 1ml syringe and another 0.1 ml (so it read 0.90), then it would be 1500ppm + 150ppm (across where 0.90 reads) = 1650. Ta da! Hope that helps! If you need more help killing the bryopsis, let me know. Been there, done that. Just make sure to keep it elevated for longer than anywhere you read. Otherwise...it'll come back and won't go away again as easily.
Edited by Reef'd Up - February 21 2012 at 5:04pm
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Ryan Thompson
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 5:07pm |
MIK3B wrote:
I acquired some "special fern looking algae" when buying some live rock from a board member a while back and just thought it was macro/hair algae...In the past I've had pretty good luck eradicating hair and other nuisance algae from my tanks in the past by out competing it with macroalgae, making sure to change my light bulbs regularly and making sure my RO water was really low in TDS/lowering phosphates and silicates etc, but I've had a hard time with this particular algae. Did a little research and determined that I too have bryopsis. So besides adding a lettuce Nudibranch or a good Tang I've been thinking about doing this too.
Here's a good RC link where a few folks had success.
And another, specifically touting Kent's Tech M and Mag Sulfates.
Got my BRS Magnesium Chloride today and have a bunch of Mag Sulfate at home too so I am going to increase my levels slowly per RFH:
From Randy Holmes-Farley: I suggest targeting the natural seawater concentration of magnesium: ~1285 ppm. For practical purposes, 1250-1350 ppm is fine, and levels slightly outside that range (1200-1400 ppm) are also likely acceptable. I would not suggest raising magnesium by more than 100 ppm per day, in case the magnesium supplement contains impurities. If you need to raise it by several hundred ppm, spreading the addition over several days will allow you to more accurately reach the target concentration, and might possibly allow the aquarium to handle any impurities that the supplement contains.
I personally have had a hard time keeping my Mag up at 1300 where I like it. I've used the Seachem Pro line (Ions?) liquid mag, BRS mag sulfate and mag chloride and have NEO Mag in my CA Reactor but it won't dissolve at the same pH as my CA media so I doubt it's adding much, if any.
IIRC, you can halve the amount of sample water and then times the result by 2 to get a higher (or was it a more accurate?) result or use half your test kit? It's in the printed literature that came with my test kit at home...but I won't be home for hours.
Maybe someone else will chime in in the meantime - and MAYBE they'll have experience with accurately testing elevated Mag levels AND killing Bryopsis.  |
Kent Tech M is the only magnesium supp that will eradicate Bryopsis last time I looked into all of it. Regular old magnesium won't do the trick.
I would pull out the infected rock and spot treat the Bryopsis with straight hydrogen peroxide.
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SkylerS
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 5:11pm |
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It's the "impurities" in the Kent tech M that kills the bryopsis, not the magnesium itself. I have my levels at 1500 ppm right now and I'm seeing great die off of bryopsis already. I have a thread in general help section. But all the forums regarding kent tech and bryposis suggest a level of 1600-1800 to kill it off for good, as I'm at the max of my test kit paramater of 1500, I need to know how to go further. So, if I
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SkylerS
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 5:13pm |
Reef'd Up wrote:
Do the test as normal. When you get to the end of the 1ml syringe, fill it back up. Measure how much it takes from that second 1ml syringe to get the color change. Say it took 1ml syringe and another 0.1 ml (so it read 0.90), then it would be 1500ppm + 150ppm (across where 0.90 reads) = 1650. Ta da! Hope that helps! If you need more help killing the bryopsis, let me know. Been there, done that. Just make sure to keep it elevated for longer than anywhere you read. Otherwise...it'll come back and won't go away again as easily.
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That makes perfect sense! duh! Thanks!
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ReefdUp
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 5:46pm |
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Hehe...no problem...I see that question all the time! And yes, you're right, it's the impurities (I think the general consensus is minute amounts of copper) in the Tech M that kills it - NOT mag sulfate/chloride.
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SkylerS
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 5:52pm |
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copper wouldnt make sense because inverts arent being affected.
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ReefdUp
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 6:08pm |
At very low levels of copper, inverts aren't obviously affected to the general reefkeeper's eye (although their reproductive capability usually is.) And, if you check your salt mix, I bet you there's trace amounts of copper in it too...and your inverts are still "ok", right? Some fish food has trace amounts as well. Of course, we have no idea how low we're really talking here about TechM. Copper has been used in treating algae infestations for eons (houses, waterfalls, ponds, you name it.) So, the general consensus I've read is that most people believe it's trace amounts of copper. Copper also makes sense why the TechM has to be dosed at a level to maintain 1600 or so since copper has to be dosed regularly to keep the levels up. More reading: That thread mentions lead, but I haven't read about lead as a suspect before.
Edited by Reef'd Up - February 21 2012 at 6:10pm
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MIK3B
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 6:10pm |
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Interesting. The impurities...I'm curious what those are, then we could just those elements. At $35/gallon plus shipping, it gets expensive to keep these elevated levels.
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ReefdUp
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 6:14pm |
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They've (big companies like SeaChem, etc) been working on it for years. Nada so far that I'm aware of.
Edited by Reef'd Up - February 21 2012 at 6:14pm
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SkylerS
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 6:28pm |
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I agree that copper has been used for algal conrtol, but I don't buy that there's enough copper in Kent tech M to negatively affect this seemingly invincible algae and not effect our delicate corals, anemones, and shrimp, etc. I could be wrong, but I will agree that it COULD be, I just don't think it is. But I will attest that it works.
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ReefdUp
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 6:52pm |
If you go through the countless threads around, most people *do* start to see negative effects with higher dosing (1650 is the lowest I've read...most occur around 1750). Low dose copper usually causes less noticeable effects (like I mentioned reproductive health, especially in things like urchins.) The thing is, is that everything is toxic at some level...different levels for different things. What is toxic to algae may require more of that "toxin" for higher order animals. And, there are different ways to uptake toxins, and that may play into this as well. I'm not arguing it's copper, I'm just arguing that what is killing the bryopsis is probably also lethal to other things in our aquarium (which is why people have problems with higher doses) just not at the 1600ppm magnesium level.
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MIK3B
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 7:08pm |
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I'm a bit skeptical too. I've read a little here and there but not enough to post confidently about it.
As far as sulfate/chloride vs the Tech M goes, one person in the first link I posted used Mag Sulfate when they ran out of Tech M 6 months later when it came back:
"It came back about 6 months later. I had no Tech M on hand, so I used BRS Magnesium Chloride to raise my Mg to about 1800ppm. I increased Mg from about 1300, about 100ppm daily, and saw no adverse effects on anything except the bryopsis. Once again, it melted away, and has not returned (touch wood) one year later."
And then there's this, which I find CRAZY:
"Just an update. I was speaking with a customer today who had also done this. He said he raised the mag in his tank to 3200 over a day or so and all of the byropsis died immediately with no impact to any corals. He did say he was careful to adjust the salinity while he was doing it."
Mag at 3200?!
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ReefdUp
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 7:15pm |
Randy Holmes-Farley (IMO the #1 trusted name for reef chemistry) believes it is the impurities in the Tech-M and not magnesium, chloride, or sulfate. Additionally, most people, including myself, did not have success with BRS Mag Chloride/Sulfate (I dose both). There are a few cases, but those are few and far between - not the majority. I'd say there isn't enough data on what else those people were dosing or doing...or even if it actually was bryopsis algae. As far as dosing up to 3200ppm...that's insane...and I don't believe it. Raising up to 3200 over a day would shock everything. My hubby accidentally dosed a gallon of magnesium to our 40g aquarium several years back instead of what he thought was RO/DI topoff water. Lemme tell ya, I lost about everything. I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess maybe that guy's test kit was off or he didn't know how to measure (or just liked to make stuff up.)
Edited by Reef'd Up - February 21 2012 at 7:15pm
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MIK3B
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 7:19pm |
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I'd have to agree. Randy suggests raising no more than 100PPM per day.
3200 is ridiculous... And probably not even possible.
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ReefdUp
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 7:51pm |
Sorry, you guys got me digging... HighlandReefer posted this on RC: "...Good questions. No research to back any methods used by hobbyists to control
bryopsis. We really don't know what kills the bryopsis and can only guess
logically. For example, lets say that it is the
heavy metal contaminates in the Tech M that is responsible. The most likely is
copper. However, research has shown that when you mix heavy metals like copper
and lead or copper and zinc, the combination of the two (perhaps more) will kill
algae at lower doses than either of the two metals independently (A synergistic
effect). If it is the heavy metals or their combinations then your
current heavy metal level in your tank water can influence the amount you need
to add to get to the control level. The little research in reef tanks has shown
that copper can vary from undetectable to over 30 ppb in hobbyists tanks. Copper
levels over 30 ppb can cause problems (perhaps the most likely zone to kill
bryopsis) and levels over say 70 ppb can kill invertebrates. The problem is how
much do you add since we can't measure heavy metals in reef tanks with hobby
grade kits. What are the levels that kill byopsis? What are the heavy metal
levels in Tech M? The dissolved organic levels in your tank water can influence
the results as well, since heavy metals can quickly tie to them and toxicity is
reduced in the organic form vs. the inorganic ionic forms. There are a lot of
factors that can interfere with this process of control given it is the heavy
metals. That said, from reading through the threads, it seems that an
increase of 300-400 ppm magnesium using Tech M works best. You will want to
increase the mag as quickly as possible without killing other things. It is
recommended to not increase mag by more than 100 ppm per day due to the
contaminates. Perhaps somewhere between 50 ppm to 100 ppm mag increase is the
ticket. Hobbyists have reported the loss of snails and shrimp when doing this,
so you may want to remove any before trying this.  "
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SkylerS
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 11:59pm |
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I wanted to post a little update on my Kent M addition. Today I'm noticing some ich spots on some of my fish. A blue tang (ofcourse) and a Temminckii Wrasse. Could be because of the Tech M or could be that I moved my UV sterilizer from the return line to the tank to the sump due to a cracked flange. Could be a mixture of both. I'm not too worried about it though. My tang goes through phases where she will show ich spots, and then in a day or two they will be gone. I moved my UV sterilizer to dump directly into the tank from my return line until I can get some larger tubing to cover the entire flange and threads. Bryopsis is dying off nicely though. I went in to the tank today and manually removed some bryopsis. Normally it adheres to the rock very well and is hard to pull off, but in a lot of spots it pulled off very easily and is actually falling off in spots. I figured less in the tank is less that the tech M has to kill =) good riddance to this crap. haha.
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SkylerS
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Posted: February 22 2012 at 11:55am |
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I would also like to note that as my Mg levels are approaching 1600 ppm I am noticing decreased activity in my turbo snails.
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