Banggai Cardnials
Printed From: Utah Reefs
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Forum Name: Fish
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URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21479
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Topic: Banggai Cardnials
Posted By: Bob Kripfgans
Subject: Banggai Cardnials
Date Posted: October 28 2007 at 4:20pm
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There are finally signs of courting going on.
Almost a year ago I was fortunate enough to aquire a few babies from Fish-4-you. These were tank raised from stock aquired from a fellow member a few years back. Unfortunately out of 9 only 2 survived. They are now in a planted tank and from what I have just witnessed very happy. I was afraid the they weren't or wouldn't be M/F and that my intentions of breeding would come to a halt.
Banaggai's are being depleted in the wild since they come from one area and are all to easy to capture. I though this would be a great way to contribute to the ongoing breeding and survival of the species.
Two weeks ago I made a trip to Urban Aquatics...a very informative trip I might add. I was told that there was research that indicated Banggai's will change sex as they mature...somthing like our favorites the clowns will do. Either I'm a very lucky man or it finally happened. I have a male and female.
More to follow on this subject. Hopefully new babies in the future  ------------- WMAS is da place! Save the Banggai's! Tooele,Ut. |
Replies:
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: October 28 2007 at 4:27pm
| i picked up two from aquatica when i was up there. I tried to pick the two with the most different mouths. Hopefully they will be M and F and breed also!!!!!!!!!!!! I love banggais!!!! They are super sweet! |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: October 28 2007 at 4:31pm
That's awesome Bob. I'm glad to see you get back into this. I wish more people bred these fish. 
Mike -------------  |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 28 2007 at 6:24pm
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I love em too.
I recently picked up what appear to be a mated pair.
Here's one of my old daddies with eggs in his mouth. Amie now has this guy and his mate. They are still breeding after 2 years.
  Here are some of their cute babies the day they were released.
 ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
|
Posted By: Bob Kripfgans
Date Posted: October 28 2007 at 6:41pm
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Hello Mark!
Yep ..when I started the venture it was mainly due to your breeding and raising a few. I know of a few members that were lucky enough to get some. That's my mission...I know Jeff Rasmussen is looking for a pair also.
According to some of the info that I aquired they like rock overhangs. I think it gives them a sense of security. I have a well planted bottom of mexicana which they are always lurking in and out of it. I know the male carries the eggs in his mouth until hatching. I have witnessed this at fish-4-u. Todd at Urban Aquatics also tells me that a clay flower pot is a good place for the to lay eggs. Is it that after the female lays eggs then the male picks them up and holds them until hatching.
Maybe you can enlighten me on this Mark or anyone who has knowledge on thier breeding habits. I will continue to Google for some answers. ------------- WMAS is da place! Save the Banggai's! Tooele,Ut. |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: October 28 2007 at 8:23pm
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The clay pot works great for egg layers (anemonefishes) but is not used for cardinals. No tank mates and a lot of food certainly helps.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: October 28 2007 at 8:48pm
| ive read that they tend to lay more consistently if fed live foods. Many people purposely feed dead food to give the male a break for a bit. |
Posted By: jeffras
Date Posted: October 28 2007 at 9:27pm
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I am currently looking for a cardinal to try and mate it one I have had for a while. Hard to find tank raised cardinals around here though. I am very interested to know where the info about changing sexes came from. As far as my research is concerned that is not true. ------------- Jeff Rasmussen |
Posted By: Bob Kripfgans
Date Posted: October 28 2007 at 9:47pm
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Check this out > here they are spawning!
http://www.reefobsession.com/movies/bangaii_2006.wmv - http://www.reefobsession.com/movies/bangaii_2006.wmv ------------- WMAS is da place! Save the Banggai's! Tooele,Ut. |
Posted By: Gahlenfr
Date Posted: October 28 2007 at 9:49pm
| I have a couple of Marks offspring (his bangaii cardinals anyways) and they are great. One is male and one is female and I hope they spawn. They certainly are old enough now. They are amongst my most favorite fish. |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: October 28 2007 at 10:13pm
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Linda Spencer (LJBS)has bred them too. She is not often on the board though.
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: Bob Kripfgans
Date Posted: October 28 2007 at 10:50pm
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I spoke to Linda about her breeding Banggai's. It takes some persistence to calculate the right time when the male releases the eggs. After holding them for 18 to 20 days he's almost starved and will consume them out of hunger. This is a good find after my Google search today. Black spiney sea urchins are used to hide the babies from the hungry male. It seams that the spines from the urchin in the wild help to protect the young. They will hide between the spines. Sort of the old guppie breeder I use to have as a kid. It looked like a branch of an old x-mas tree it made a great hiding place for the newborn guppies. So I will go a little further. Some breeders use weedeater line. They drill holes in PVC caps and string the line thru to minic urchin spines. Has anyone seen black weedeater line?
What will mother nature think of next. ------------- WMAS is da place! Save the Banggai's! Tooele,Ut. |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: October 28 2007 at 11:35pm
What will mother nature think of next.
 ------------- |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 8:40am
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For people who raise these guys for a living....
They don't let the male carry them for long. Once the mail has the egss you can catch him and scare him until he releases the eggs. Then, raise the eggs somewhere else (like a little bucket with an airstone).
Put the male back in with the female. The faster you get the eggs from him the faster he begins eating again and the faster he will be ready for more eggs. All the male does in the egg process is aerate the eggs.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 9:12am
Oh how misinformation does abound
The video shows it. In a flash the female releases an egg, the male fertilizes it and then scoops it up in his mouth before it has a chance to drop away. It's done in a second or two. In my experience, they do this about 25 times. The male cannot hold much more than this.
If I'm not mistaken, Amie has some eggs developing right now. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
|
Bob Kripfgans wrote:Posted By: Gahlenfr
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 11:16am
| As it turns out my male has eggs right this very moment. I looked at him last night and this morning since he has not been eating and his mouth is enlarged and sure enough there are eggs in there. What next? Adam you indicate that I should catch him and scare him into releasing the eggs. Just how is that accomplished? I thought I looked scary enought! |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 12:02pm
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Amie did it just two weeks ago. She have some insight here. For me, catch them in a net and that is usually all it takes. You may have to give him a little shaking.
Oh, but first get a place ready for the eggs. Like using a phosban reactor. Just put the eggs in there so they are slowly tumbling around.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 2:00pm
Awesome!
I hope it works out.
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 2:59pm
I would like to get more information about this, Adam. Do you have any references or reading material? I haven't been able to find any documentation of exactly how breeder's use this method. If they all do it, it seems like I should be able to find something.
My experiement went bust. All 29 of the eggs finally disentigrated and died. I think the male provides more than just aeration for the eggs, I think he provides protection and food for them as well once they hatch as larvae. (yes, I said larvae.)
It was an interesting experiment though. It gave me a better idea of what actually happens to them while they are in the male's mouth. When they were at about day 10, they actually hatched into larvae with yolksacs that were bigger than they were. The fry were still in some kind of a stasis. They weren't swimming or eating yet. They were just attached to the yolksac and moving with it. I was able to put one under the microscope and see that it was alive because it had a heartbeat. (which was incredible) I have some pictures, but they are on my other computer. I'll get them posted later.
As the yolksac slowly dissolved, the larvae seemed to get weaker and weaker until they slowly died. None of them ever swam or ate for themselves. I wonder if the male provides some sort of stimulation for them to start swimming.
It was all pretty fascinating, but sad as well.
-------------
Gahlen, somewhere I have a video of actually catching the male and getting him to release the baby bangai's from his mouth. I will look that up as well.
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Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 3:07pm
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Definitely fascinating and sad. I do look forward to seeing those pictures!
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 5:52pm
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For those not prepared to risk losing all the eggs, waiting until the babies have hatched is how many of us have done it. Sometimes the eggs disappear but that's usually just the first batch. Once the male gets the hang of it, he holds them full term. IMO, the pair should be in at least a 30 gal tank by themselves or if a community reef, at least 55 gal.
It's good to feed really well for weeks prior to the spawning. Then watch the male closely every day. At about day 20 the fry will hatch and instead of seeing red eggs, you should see the little tails hanging out of his mouth.
That night you wait till the tank and room lights have been off for at least 1/2 hour then with net in hand, turn on the tank lights and net dad. It's surprising how easy it is to catch dad when he's momentarily blinded by the lights. He will usually drop the babies immediately or you might have to chase him around, or catch him and gently shake the babies out of his mouth.
Thanks to Amie for all these pics. Here is my hand trying to catch the dad.
 Can you see the baby next to daddy?
 ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
|
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 6:00pm
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For sexing, we are looking at jaw structure (male vs. female)... correct?
What about the dorsal fin thing? I was told that "on males the second 'spine' is much longer than the first..."
However, to me, the 2 fish in the video - obviously a male and a female - their dorsals look very simialr if not exactly the same.
Is the dorsal fin length not an accurate determiner for sexing these fish? ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 6:16pm
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You are correct, the dorsal fin is a totally unreliable way of sexing. In fact, in my experience the only way to be sure you have a pair is to buy 3-4 fish and let them do the pairing.
After the male has carried his first batch of eggs full term to fry, his jaw will usually be much more square or will look slightly swollen compared to the female. If you are familiar with the look of a Cutthroat trout, the red mark usually appears when the jaw is distended. Without eggs this distension can be noticable in a male Bangaii, minus the red mark of course.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
|
Posted By: jeffras
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 6:21pm
I agree. I have been giving this a ton of thought. I hate the idea of buying three-four and then pulling them later. So here is my thought. The males are extremely aggressive so why not use a mirror? Wouldn't you be able to tell the sex if the fish becomes aggressive to its reflection? ------------- Jeff Rasmussen |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 6:29pm
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Right now I have 2 Banggais; one is slightly larger than the other... to me their jawlines look similar but the bigger one looks a little more "squarejawed" I would call it.... But that could mean something or nothing. I mean, maybe they are both the same sex but different ages - or maybe the opposite sex and the same age (or different ages, too)???
I will say they spend a good amount of time together, though not inseparable by any means...
And I always thought that agression was by the pair towards any other Banggais; not neccesarily only male -to- male...so I don't know that a mirror would work. (But then again, it might
 )I can say that in my case my 2 Cardinals they are not agressive towards each other.
Which could mean something - or again, nothing...?
(I think I am back where I started. Just "make babies" if you are going to, OK guys???  )------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: jeffras
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 6:35pm
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I have read online that if you have a male and place another male in the tank you will have a fight. But there is very little info out there regarding this. I think the mirror might work because I have a single fish which I believe to be male. It spends all day showing aggression to the glass in the tank. It only started this after I scraped the coralline algae from the glass for the reef tour. It would be great for someone with a mated pair to place a mirror in and see what the male does. Would you say both of your fish have hit maturity? How large are they? ------------- Jeff Rasmussen |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 6:44pm
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They are about 1.5 - 1.75" long; the larger one looks a little "beefier" than the smaller one.
They hang out together alot - but not always.
I have never seen either one display any agression to the glass or any other fish. However, they are some of the smaller fish I have (together with 2 oscellaris clowns about the same size) plus I only have about 9 fish total in my 125g - all under 3" except for the 5+" Foxface... so it is a pretty peacefull setup, with lots of hiding places, etc...
I have had them 3 months now. Got them from Birdworld. There were 5 or 6 of them in the display tank at the time... ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: JayTee
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 6:48pm
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If anyone is successful at breeding and raising the Bengaii, I would be very interested in purchasing a few (4-6). I have purchased some in the past, not knowing that their numbers have been depleted in the wild (which really upsets me that I contributed to that), but I had no luck with them. They all developed a mouth fungus and quit eating - this happened on two seperate attempts. I want to try it again, now that I fell I have a better, more mature system now. ------------- Jeremy |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 7:19pm
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Amie-
Ask Dr. Marini, he has raised more Bangaii than anyone. He shakes the male every time. He uses an egg tumbler (I saw some for sale for $5 on the freshwater site recently).
The male is just a holding tank for the eggs. Otherwise he is completely useless. Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Bob Kripfgans
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 8:14pm
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Here's a few links of intrest. One by Dr. Marini these are great articles.
http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/f_marini_020799.html - http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/f_marini_020799.html
http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/k_clarke_102499.html - http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/k_clarke_102499.html
http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/seagrant/communication/pdf/Banggai%20Cardinalfish-Final.pdf - http://www.soest.hawaii.edu/seagrant/communication/pdf/Banggai%20Cardinalfish-Final.pdf ------------- WMAS is da place! Save the Banggai's! Tooele,Ut. |
Posted By: Bob Kripfgans
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 8:38pm
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Here's one more personel observation about sexing the Banggai's. We talk about the slightly longer second dorsel in the males. For the most part store bought fish go thru the trama of shipping which almost always destroys what I have observed on my male. The second dorsel fin consists of a white frontal line followed by a black middle section followed by yet another line of a seemingly transparent speckled edge on the dorsel.
Since my pair was raised from fry they had ideal conditions that perserved this delicate dorsel fin. What I mean by this I have low flow and no other fish that would compete or destroy this characteristic.
I have noticed the black center extends between the front and rear that seems to be seperated at it's tip and extends further than that of the female. This tip does not seen to be supported and gives sort of a waving flag effect. Like I said most of these fins are either damaged during shipment or by other fish in a reef enviornmet. The above articles state depending on age you will notice the squaring of the jaw on older males which is one thier most common distinguishing characteristics. ------------- WMAS is da place! Save the Banggai's! Tooele,Ut. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 9:38pm
| Great articles, Bob. Still none of them mentioning taking the eggs before hatching though. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 9:52pm
Oh sure, I'll just get out my address book. Just a sec...I'm looking....I'm sure it's here somewhere...wait a minute, ....Dang, someone must have stolen his phone number from my address book - it's not here!
Well, there's that .. plus the fertilizing thingy that he does before he puts the eggs in his mouth.
I'm not going to touch that one.
|
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 10:03pm
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I was wondering if that would end up on a sig line.
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 10:36pm
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Amie-
Dr. Marini is the head guy on MOFIB. I thought you'd know that with all your time on marinebreeder.
 If you post on there under the cardinal forum I'm sure he'll see it. Or pm him there. He's been running fish breeding forums for over 7 years now.Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 10:47pm
Oh he does a LITTLE bit more than just hold the eggs
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Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: October 29 2007 at 10:52pm
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Nope, like males of most species he is useless. Trust me, there are plenty of other males happy to help in the fertilization part. He's pretty much just an incubator.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Dutch
Date Posted: October 30 2007 at 10:54am
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Amie I'd like to have a pair when you have some that are ready!
Dutch ------------- Honda nut(If you need your Honda worked on give me a PM) "For the last 10 years of my life I get paid to hurt People, thats what I do, I hurt people" -Jeremy Horn |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 30 2007 at 2:11pm
What are you talking about? I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to call you on this one.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 30 2007 at 4:11pm
Actually I do, and he's not. Well, if you mean by 'head guy', you mean 'star' on the forum, then yes, he's there along with Martin Moe. Neither of them have posted much over there. But he didn't actually start the forum.
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Posted By: Bob Kripfgans
Date Posted: October 30 2007 at 8:17pm
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Amy...just post as Adam Blundell...I garuntee Dr. Marini will answer. ------------- WMAS is da place! Save the Banggai's! Tooele,Ut. |
Posted By: Will Spencer
Date Posted: October 31 2007 at 9:22pm
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When I had two breeding pair in my tank they very adamantly stayed on their own side of the tank. If the males ever ventured out for food to the middle of the tank and encountered each other the large of them quickly chased the other to his side of the tank. When the males were both holding eggs they pretty much stayed in hiding most of the time. I had to search behind the rock work to find them. At one time I though they had both died, but eventually they both came out for food again. I have not tried to raise them on purpose, but I had three that survived in the tank and grew to adulthood. When 2 of those 3 paired up the 3rd quickly disappeared. I'm sure it was knocked off by the other 2. When I found the first of these 3 I was quite astonished when I saw a baby Bangaii swimming in the middle of one of my Frogspawn heads.
I turned to get my camera and of course it was gone when I turned back around. A few days later I found 2 of them hiding behind the rock work when I was looking in the side of my tank. (If you know my tank you know I was doing some strange acrobatics.) A couple days after that I found the 3rd one with them. Unfortunately I now only have the original pair and one of the fish from the other pair. For some reason the pair does not give the lone fish any trouble, but they still live on opposite sides of the tank.
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Posted By: Dion Richins
Date Posted: October 31 2007 at 10:10pm
I love these fish. Peacefull, beautifull and dang fun to watch.
  ------------- http://www.customaquariumfurniture.com" rel="nofollow - Bad "censored" Cabinets Best quality in the valley! He is one sexy bald guy, even with out a finger!(MAC) |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: October 31 2007 at 11:31pm
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Beautiful shots Dion!
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: Will Spencer
Date Posted: November 01 2007 at 10:56am
| Dion, you know what is funny is that I didn't used to like these fish at all. I thought they were less than beautiful. Thing is they grow on you. They look so cute as babies and when they grow up in your tank you kind of gain an appreciation for them. At least I did. |
Posted By: Dion Richins
Date Posted: November 01 2007 at 10:57am
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Agreed! ------------- http://www.customaquariumfurniture.com" rel="nofollow - Bad "censored" Cabinets Best quality in the valley! He is one sexy bald guy, even with out a finger!(MAC) |
Posted By: Bob Kripfgans
Date Posted: November 02 2007 at 4:30pm
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You know I felt the same way....they didn't impress me at first. But after last nights meeting which confirmed they are becomming an endangered species I am even more compelled to be sucessful breeding them. The brine shrimp hatcheries start tomorrow. I hope by enriching live BS will fatten up the male before the female transfers the eggs. So far just a show, with a little courting dance or flirting going on. It won't be long now.
------------- WMAS is da place! Save the Banggai's! Tooele,Ut. |
Posted By: pa_reptileman_4
Date Posted: November 05 2007 at 11:45pm
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i would like a few from sombody i do belive... ------------- pitiful guppy tank. shane |
Posted By: Dutch
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 3:37pm
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I'd like a pair as well when the time comes! Dutch
------------- Honda nut(If you need your Honda worked on give me a PM) "For the last 10 years of my life I get paid to hurt People, thats what I do, I hurt people" -Jeremy Horn |
Posted By: reptoreef
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 3:41pm
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I'm interested in a pair.
------------- www.captivereefing.com |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 6:35pm
| Dion, this reminds me, do you have a pair now? I noticed 2 bangaii's in the picture at the meeting. |
Posted By: pa_reptileman_4
Date Posted: November 06 2007 at 6:46pm
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amie don't you have a breeding pair? ------------- pitiful guppy tank. shane |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 09 2007 at 8:11pm
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Does this mean what I think it means?
1) My larger of the 2 Banggai has always had a more "square jawed / underbite" appearance than his slightly smaller counterpart. However, starting last evening, the difference is a lot more pronounced; especially where he would have a "chin" (if fish had chins)... that area is sort of 'unfolded' more than normal; his face looks fuller, like he has a mouth full of food ...
2) This afternoon, at feeding time, I paid close attention to both my Banggai Cardinals. Usually, they are somewhat agressive feeders (mainly because ALL my fish have learned that if they just sit back and wait for my 5" Foxface to eat first, there won't be anything left for them to eat... at all
)... Upon dropping in a cube of plankton, the Foxface came swimming over and started tugging at the food; once the cube melted down and food was floating all over I noticed the smaller Banggai (as usual) chased down pieces with the usual gusto... the larger one, the one with the "full looking mouth"... slowly swam to the general area but did not eat at all... I wanted to be sure, so I got my wife to watch him, too, and I fed another cube... Same result. Smaller one ate like usual; larger one nothing. A few pieces even wafted within easy "striking" distance of his mouth... he just let them pass.3) After explaining the entire situation to my wife re: Banggai reproduction, she agreed that the larger fish A) definitely looks "different" than usual around his mouth / jaw area; B) did not eat at all - for the first time since they day we brought them home; C) looks like his mouth is full... "pouting" was the word she used...
As far as witnessing some kind of courtship or spawning behavior...? Well, if anything happened it probably happened while I was at work and (quite frankly) no one else in my house pays enough attention to the tank to notice if anything "frisky" was going on...
I have not noticed either of the Banggai chasing any other fish away, or trying to "claim" a section of the tank for themselves only... should that be happening if there was a spawning event? (I'm thinking mouth-brooding cichlids here...)
How long is incubation, 15 - 20 days?
Once the fry hatch, does the male still carry them (like a cichlid) or is it "every man for himself"?
Or am I getting ahead of myself?
I will try to post a pic tomorrow (I'm at work right now)...if it helps, that pic that Mark posted back on page 1... you see how there is like an extra "fold" of skin (scales?) that kind of now 'puffs out' a little in the lower jaw region? That wasn't there on my larger one until 2 days ago... the smaller one never had it... and it seems an eerie coincidence that it suddenly appears AND the fish loses interest in eating right at the same time...
Hmmmmmmmmmm ????
And - if so - what to do next ???!!!
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: jeffras
Date Posted: November 09 2007 at 8:16pm
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Cool. Start planning a rearing tank.
------------- Jeff Rasmussen |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 09 2007 at 8:17pm
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[QUOTE=Bob Kripfgans]Check this out > here they are spawning!
http://www.reefobsession.com/movies/bangaii_2006.wmv%5b/QUOTE - http://www.reefobsession.com/movies/bangaii_2006.wmv
OK - I just watched this... my "pair" looks like this pair... 'male' is slightly larger, "huskier" looking, and has the same thing going on with his jaw area in terms of expansion and the "unfolding" skin...
 ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: pa_reptileman_4
Date Posted: November 09 2007 at 9:03pm
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i cant get that link to come up...and i would be interested in a few babies if they are incubating some...let me know. ------------- pitiful guppy tank. shane |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 09 2007 at 9:05pm
|
PA:
try it now. If it still doesn't work it is also on one ofthe other pages of this thread
I'm not 100% sure I got a spawn yet but it does look promising... ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Jhamb
Date Posted: November 09 2007 at 10:00pm
You know what i HATED these fish when i first saw them. i have only recently (the past couple months) really gave them the appreciation they deserve they are some really cool fish and i would love to get a pair of them some day soon. ------------- Jeremy 40B INW USAF |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 09 2007 at 11:44pm
Seems like if / when the time gets close (he started to refuse food either today or yesterday - so I figure right around Thanksgiving as a "due date" for hatching) I am gonna have to catch the male...
Undecided as of now whether to go with a full blown 10g "fry tank" right away or use one of those "guppy net breeders" right in the main display (with maybe a little patch of chaeto for cover instead of that fake "grass" they sell for FW livebearers) for the first few weeks.
Thinking about water quality / food availablity issues pro & con between the 2 setups; especially in the beginning when the fry go for newly hatched brine, rotifers, etc. Might just be easier to use a net breeder and add some naupli 3, 4 times a day and not worry about water quality / ammo buildup in a seperate small tank. Then, once the fry grow a little, move them out to a seperate tank...?
Also have to see whether the small netting is effective enough at reducing flow - so the fry don't get "whipped around" from the display pumps while inside the net breeder...
Hmmmmmmmm again
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: November 09 2007 at 11:46pm
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It does sound promising!
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 09 2007 at 11:52pm
I'm keeping my fingers crossed Mike !!!!  ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: pa_reptileman_4
Date Posted: November 09 2007 at 11:57pm
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yep still not working i'll look for those other threads ------------- pitiful guppy tank. shane |
Posted By: jeffras
Date Posted: November 10 2007 at 12:47pm
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Well, if they are anything like clown fry you will want to go with a separate tank. The reason is that it would be very hard to keep required food that the fry need at an acceptable density.
------------- Jeff Rasmussen |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 10 2007 at 8:28pm
|
As promised, here are a few photos of my Banggai pair that I took today:
The male is the larger one on the left. Note the distended
lower jaw as compared to the female - it was not nearly
so noticeable a few days ago... it used to be fairly difficult
to tell the two apart other than size; now the difference
seems obvious
 Here is a side view of the male -
 Another of the male showing just how far out the lower jaw is -
 For the 2nd straight day the male took no food. I also noticed that the whenever a 'threat' was percieved (like if I came too close to the tank; or after the first few photos with the flash on) the female would come from wherever she was to swim closely alongside the male... while the male is staying more or less in one general area of the tank - note the same frogspawn coral in all 3 shots...
I have tried to get a glimpse inside his mouth to look for eggs but it has
been pretty hard to see much of anything. I am guessing that an egg clutch would grow a little larger as days pass and the eggs incubate; maybe it will be easier to see in a week or so...
So... do you think I am right on this? Baby Banggais on the way...?
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: jeffras
Date Posted: November 10 2007 at 8:37pm
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I think so. Time will tell though. Keep an eye on his mouth and keep us updated. ------------- Jeff Rasmussen |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 10 2007 at 11:14pm
Absolutely. The first, and almost 100% accurate sign, is the male not eating. He won't eat for 3 weeks now. He might act like he's hungry and start to go for the food, but he will never eat.
Mark your calendar for 18-21 days from the day you think he started carrying eggs. Tails should start to poke out of his mouth around that time.
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Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 12:05am
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Great pictures!
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: Bob Kripfgans
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 9:15am
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Here's an easy way to raise a few. I used two pieces of plexi that ran top to bottom of the main tank. I cut windows and glued netting or bridal viel over the holes. The pieces are now pressed into the sandbed to form a square. Remember this goes from top to bottom of the tank.
You now have the best of both worlds. You don't have to worry about water quality and water changes. Aim a power head towards the windows for circulation not direct just enough to keep water moving in the enclosure. Just dump in some BBS, pods or cyclopease and your set. What ever filters thru the bridal viel is food for the parents ....who will wait outside the netting when its feeding time. The size of the enclosure does not matter that much since your filtration is the main tank. I built mine with two pieces 6in x 6in.
Now all I need is for my pair to breed....still waiting. ------------- WMAS is da place! Save the Banggai's! Tooele,Ut. |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 9:58am
|
OK so the general consensus is I need to start preparing for a "blessed event"...Cool!
I have kind of figured out the whole fry tank thing... what I am thinking of doing is setting up a 10g right up against (and level with) my 125 display... like on the side of it. Then use a siphon tube to bring tank water in and a small powerhead with a sponge filter attachment to send water back to the display. That is actually how my "sump" and refugium are set up (I use 3 - 10gs behind and level with my display, siphon tubes in and return pumps out) and it has worked great from day one.
This way I get a constant influx of "fresh", aged, heated, 0 ammo / nitrite / nitrate water, to avoid stagnation or 'poisoning' the fry.
Whenever I feed the fry I'll just shut the powerhead off for an hour or so; this way the fry get time to eat before the food just pumped into the display tank... maybe one of those cheapie air driven sponge filters in the tank, too to provide some air when the main powerhead is shut off... ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Bob Kripfgans
Date Posted: November 11 2007 at 4:37pm
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Sounds like a great idea. ------------- WMAS is da place! Save the Banggai's! Tooele,Ut. |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 5:33pm
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3rd day w/o feeding for "Papa" Banggai... If "conception" day was Nov 8, then I should be seeing babies around, what, the 24 - 28... right?
Let the "countdown" begin!!! ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 5:36pm
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yay!!! babies! ------------- I <3 Boxers Achilles tang lover |
Posted By: pa_reptileman_4
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 6:37pm
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can i get on the list for some??? ------------- pitiful guppy tank. shane |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 12 2007 at 6:49pm
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I am not making a "list" yet as I think that is a bit premature... nothing has even hatched at this point - never mind having live births, then getting the fry to a size big enough that people would want them...(don't want to "jinx" it )
Once we get to around 3 months post - hatching, from what I have read, the fry should be around 3/4" long; and then we can see who is interested... if things go well, I have learned that we should have a hatching of between 15 - 30 babies right around Thanksgiving or the weekend after...
I will say that right now I do not expect to be keeping any grown out fry for myself, just the original breeding pair - so, if things go well, anyone interested will probably have a chance at some babies...when the time is right.
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 3:02am
I think you should expect the babies to hatch around day 18, so Nov. 26. But you aren't supposed to remove them until you start seeing the tails come out of his mouth. This is supposed to happen around day 21, Nov. 29.
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Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 1:22pm
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I'm thinking that I should get the male out of the display tank and into the "nursery" tank a few days before...?
Just concerned about catching him and stressing him (and me) out
If I have to chase him around a bit he's not going to do anything "crazy" like swallow the eggs / fry, will he?
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 1:40pm
yes, he might. Or, he might prematurely spit them out. Just wait until they are ready to come out. Then, after the lights have been completely off for 1/2 hour, turn them on again and scoop him up with a net. The lights coming on kind of stuns him for about 30 seconds and he's simple to catch.
|
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 13 2007 at 8:11pm
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Just an update:
Day 4 w/o the male feeding - and everything looks pretty much the same (OK)...
I'll have to go out this weekend and get that nursery tank set up ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 9:37pm
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Another update:
Day 6 of no feeding by the male... his mouth looks a wee bit "fuller" which I'm guessing (hoping?) means the eggs are viable and growing a bit..
Went out and got a 10g for the 'nursery' tank... will build a 2 X 4 stand for it and set it up over the weekend.
Anyone know where I can pick up the brine eggs and a hatcher? Was in Aquatica today picking up a bunch of frozen food and forgot to ask Shawn if he carried that...
Here's an odd bit... while I was rummaging in the Aquatica food freezer, my wife spent almost 10 minutes asking Shawn all about about a nice looking 210 setup that was on display. When we got home she was like "...when we upgrade I think that would look nice against this wall here in the living room..."
 After my shock went away I was thinking to myself should I -
A) just "smile and wave" and consider myself a very lucky man that I have successfully 'addicted' her - and await the day I get to lug a 210 home?
- OR -
B) push my luck by hinting that if she liked the 210, and if we are (someday) upgrading anyway...why not go for at least 300 - 400 gallons? I mean, there is plenty of space in that living room, after all...
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: jeffras
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 9:43pm
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Brine shrimp direct sells eggs and a great hatching system
------------- Jeff Rasmussen |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 10:38pm
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There is plenty of space in the living room. Plan big!
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: pa_reptileman_4
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 11:40pm
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i was up at brine shrimp direct on tues great selection of food and i got a hachery funny thing is that i had eggs hatch in little critter cage that had a few adults in it, i dropped some eggs in there the other day and tonight i found hundreds of them in there, this will be a great way to start some cultures. ------------- pitiful guppy tank. shane |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: November 15 2007 at 11:50pm
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Sounds like a great hatchery.
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 12:40am
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Well, I'll be the first to admit that I hate to admit this, but Adam was right. People have striped the eggs from the male bangaii, put them in suspension and successfully raised them. I was able to finally contact Dr. Marini and he verified it. He was able to point me in the right direction to get some good information about it as well. Here's a video of the eggs hatching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7euDk-Qqzg - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7euDk-Qqzg
Since my bangaii kicked out his eggs (or ate them) prematurely again this week (on day 18), I guess I'll have to figure out this technique afterall.
|
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 8:37am
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Sorry to hear the male only kept the eggs 18 days. That was a pretty good video though.
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 8:45am
Considering I'm rarely, if ever, wrong it surprises me how often people don't believe me.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: November 16 2007 at 8:47am
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ps- or it is possible you just stumbled upon one of my areas of expertise
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: November 17 2007 at 10:00am
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Amie, I don't know if I said this before, but I believe if you had them in a larger tank, at least a good 55 gal reef, he would keep them full term. He feels crowded and sees no reason to increase the competition for his and his mates own food and living space. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 19 2007 at 1:39am
I agree with you Mark, I've thought about this as well. The ideal solution would be to have them in a larger tank all by themselves - but I don't have that option. I could put them in my reef, but I think they would feel crowded in there with all the other fish. (It's only 40 gallons.) They could go in my 45 Fish-only tank, but there are already 2 other bangaii's in there.
Here's something else that's interesting...if I put them in a larger tank with other fish, I doubt they would be producing eggs as often as they do right now in the smaller tank. The male has new eggs in his mouth 2-3 days after he looses the clutch. So theoretically, if I could figure out how to strip the eggs and raise them in suspension, I could get at least 2 batches a month from them.
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Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: November 19 2007 at 8:50am
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Here's something else that's interesting...if I put them in a larger tank with other fish, I doubt they would be producing eggs as often as they do right now in the smaller tank. The male has new eggs in his mouth 2-3 days after he looses the clutch. So theoretically, if I could figure out how to strip the eggs and raise them in suspension, I could get at least 2 batches a month from them.
Exactly!
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 19 2007 at 5:49pm
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Well today I started to set up the 10g "nursery tank" that will sit alongside the display.
Built the stand out of 2 X 4s and started to fill the tank with RO / DI.
I'll post a pic tomorrow once the tank is full and the filtration is in...
The male still looks like he's carrying and still not eating, of course ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: November 19 2007 at 7:15pm
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That's good news. How many days has it been now?
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: Bob Kripfgans
Date Posted: November 19 2007 at 7:26pm
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Wow! this thread has given me a some very interesting information. Mine have yet to produce or transfer eggs. They are approximately 6 months old.... maybe more time to maturity or is it a larger tank? I'm trying BS soaked in selcon. And live BS raised in my hatcheries and alternating mysis. I would hope that an enriched diet would help them to start spawning. At times they still look as if they do their little dance and their is no fighting going on. Which makes me believe they are M/F. I guess only time will tell. ------------- WMAS is da place! Save the Banggai's! Tooele,Ut. |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 19 2007 at 7:41pm
|
That last day I am certain the male fed was Nov. 7... the first day I am certain he did not feed is Nov. 9... I am unsure about Nov. 8 as I didn't feed the tank that day.
So, we are around 11 -12 days now into the "Banggai Baby Watch"
I just dread having to catch the sucker... I almost wrecked my tank catching my Foxface for Ed (Taylor) Saturday - and it took me almost a half hour to do it
 I left a Q for Dr. Marini on Marine Depot.com (Adam's suggestion)... Dr. Marini replied that I could just catch the fry after the male releases them if I make a "fake" long-spine urchin (or get a real one)... so I'm trying to decide what to do.
Dr. Marini also said the fry are "18 - 20 mm long" after hatching. I'm wondering if that is a typo because that's about 3/4" which seems a little large to me... ?
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: November 19 2007 at 8:07pm
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This article says they are about 1cm.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Garden/5533/bcphotos.html - http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Garden/5533/bcphotos.html
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 20 2007 at 2:36pm
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20mm? That's huge. Dr. Marini is definitely the expert at raising bangaii's but if his babies are 20mm, his male bangaii must be a godzilla bangaii. I've only seen bangaii babies born twice, so what do I know. |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 20 2007 at 5:35pm
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A centimeter seems much more likely... that's about the size of most FW livebearer fry, anyway...
Well, today I finished filling the nursery tank, installed a heater and a thermometer, added salts and set up my powerhead.
I didn't get a chance to snap any pics so I guess I'll get to that tomorrow. (Had to go to work
 )Then I can just adjust the nursery salinity to match the display and turn the powerhead from "recirculating" (back inside the nursery) to pumping out into the display; and prime the siphon tube going from display to nursery. The powerhead is throtted back to under 100 gph; but I figure that's still 10 X turnover in a 10g nursery tank.
Don't want any problems with polluted / stagnating water once those babies come ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: November 20 2007 at 6:56pm
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Is 10X going to be too much? Mike ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 20 2007 at 6:57pm
Just curious, have you read somewhere to grow them in this kind of environment? (Sterile, I mean)
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Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: November 20 2007 at 7:10pm
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Actually, since all the water will be circulated from the display tank to the nursery and back, I don't think that is a "sterile" environment...
I was just looking for a way around having to do water changes on the nursery tank, and worrying about leftover food buildup, ammonia, etc.
Didn't read anything about it - just kind of thought of it on my own
Figured the best environment I could give the babies should be as close to the one they were 'conceived' in, right? Circulating tank water from the display and back means same temp, salinity, water parameters, etc. - and no detritus buildup in the nursery tank. Sounds like a good idea / concept to me...
If the 100gph ends up being too strong for the fry I can just throttle back the powerhead even further. And I figured to shut if off completely whenever I feed the fry - so all the food doesn't end up getting pumped out of the nursery before the babies can eat it. I also tied a media bag around the powerhead intake strainer to prevent any fry from being sucked into the strainer... the suction is so weak right now the media bag is not even being sucked into the strainer, so I think the fry will be safe.
All in all, I think it's better than simply leaving the fry in the reef display to fend for themselves...
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |