I am realising that lighting is one of my biggest issues. I am now asking around to get peoples opinions on how many watts per gallon I would need for said whatever I want to keep.

So far it is kinda like this. Fish and inverts and some algae ... 0-1 watt per gallon

Soft coral need a minimum of around 2 watts per gallon.

I am assuming that stuff like clams need alot more. If there was some way to make a basic chart than we would all be better for research.

I am not looking to make a big dramafest out of this. You know who you are. Just a basic rundown.

I have figured out that power compact bulbs can only get up to 90watts? But average about 55watts per bulb. So obviosly it will be more difficult to run alot of wattage in a small area due to phisical space for say 8 bulbs for an average of 440watts in a 75 gallon tank. 5.86 watts per gallon would IMO grow nice soft corals and some other non finiky corals. but you will usually average 220 watts (4 PC bulbs) on a 75 gallon tank. 2.9 watts per galon. Good for softies?

I see alot of people upgrading to MH. I also see that the wattage per bulb is much higher, but also more spendy. What wattage do MH average at? What are you keeping that needs that high of wattage? How many watts per gallon do you run to keep what you have?

If this thread is done right, mark could referance this for a long time to stupid stubborn newbies like me. And then us newbies could stop therowing good money away and make an educated desision on where on the food chain we can afford to be in this hobbie. Before buying stuff that either dies or is inferior.....

Rule of thumb is, at least 4wtts per gallon. When finished with my current mh upgrade, I'll be at 570 watts at the peak period of light... this is over a 55 gl tank. If it's a 75(IMO), you could try a 6x55watt pc, a retro 4x110 watt vho, or a 2x175 watt 10000k mh with an act source or just 20000k bulbs.   

     Jason

I have a 30 gal tank with a 150 watt halide light.  So, 5 watts per gallon.  However, it isn't enough, and I'm thinking of doubling that.

Adam

On my 24 gallon, I have 12.7 watts per gallon (1x175 watt MH + 2x65watt PCs)

On my new 90 gallon tank, i'll have about 6 watts per gallon (1x400watt MH + 2x65 watt PCs)

On my tank I have 8.2 w per gal.  One 175 mh and two 32 actinics pc's on a 29 gal with a 'spider' reflector.  I would like to up my actinics to the 55/65 w pc's.  Then I think I would do a lot better.

I'm right with Crazy on that.  That is what I was thinking.

Adam

On my 180 I had 6-40 watt NO Florescents and 3-36 watt PC's. 

I now have 2-250 watt 20K MH's, 3-40 watt NO Florescents, 2-36 watt PC's and 1-55 watt PC. 

I will still be adding 1-250 watt MH for a total of 1047 watts, but after MH #3 the NO's might go. 

What's that?  5.82 watts per gallon.  I guess that will have to do I can't afford anymore.  I believe what Adam says..."You can't have to much blah, blah, blah...."

ssilcox wrote: A 150W DE (HQI) bulb with the right reflector can give more light than a 400W mogul base metal halide

Really?? What about a 400 watt with the right reflector? Ive heard that reflectors for DE bulbs do a better job than the reflectors for SE bulbs. True?

so if MH is the easiest way to kick up the wattage, where or how do I get to seting some up resonably cheep?

I do not want the limits of my tank to be the issues with cool corals. I however am not going to be as crazy (yet) on corals as many of you are. But it sounds like I need at least 5ish for a decent soft coral tank. I have about 2.5 in 2- 10000 and 2-12000k PC.

So where do I get good knowledge on either do it yourself of buying MH for my tank. I cant fit in any more PC bulbs  so how do I make this work? Time to search...

I heard something on the radio about granger supply having MH bulbs or fixtures. Anyone have more knowledge.

Anyone run off road lights?  I am almost serios. I have about 6 50000+candlepowered KC brand lights. what bulbs do they run? They gotta be high end. They are WAY bright.

How do you convert candlepower to kelvin?   Come on mark.. let me have it mr. sylicone endcaps.

You don't convert candlepower to kelvin.  Candle (or Candela) is a measure of brightness while kelvin is a measure of light color (simplistic view, I know).  Both are important and both need to be maintained.  The engineering units for measuring light are very confusing for everyone except those who teach physics .  Check the color temperature of the lights (Kelvin) if it's between 6,500 - 20,000 K then you can use them.  But I'll bet they are not the right "color" (kelvin rating).

well mark, if you came to my house I bet there would be issues. We bicker enough on the board, let alone in private.  My 12 volt light wouldn't be hard to make run off of a 12volt power supply. I understand that there is a needed spectrum of light to make things grow correctly and look nice also, but it kinda irritates me when I ask about soft corals (xenia ext) and how hard they are to keep. Every one says there like a weed in there tank. It just keeps growing. But they forget to mention that they have 600+ dollars in lighting. For that price I can go get laser surgery on my eyes.  

I don't think I want to spend that kind of money on something that is saposed to be nice and fun. I built a bad ass 4x4 toyota with junkyard parts and alot of ingenuety. Why can't I do the same with this?

So what is the average cost involved with building your own lighting setup? Say I kept the PC's and just wanted say 2 MH 400 watts in the hood. Is there a cheeper place to get ballasts and lights than through an aquatics dealer? Everything in aquatics is overpriced. I can build a hood for half the price of buying one new... CAnt I go to a lighting store and get out way cheeper than if I buy off the aquatics places in other links?

I don't have the money to spend. But I still want to tank to show off to friends. How can I do this on a really tight budget? 

Skyetone, have you searched the DIY forum here?  There's info in the mess...

Quick rundown:

MH Ballasts:  Local electrical supply $40-$50 each, NPS surplus store occasionally has them for $5 - $20 but it's a crap shoot and they're usually not in new condition.

VHO Ballasts:  Commercial Lighting Supply, Fulham ballasts.  $25 - $40

Ballast Enclosures:  Old computer case.  Search in the DIY section, I've got my ballasts in an old case.

Bulbs:  Where ever.

I've got two 250 watt MH and one 400 watt MH on my tank total cost excluding bulbs was about  $150.

I just bought a 400w fixture on Ebay for $40 (+28 shipping) of course I know nothing of it's quality yet and I bid without asking a single question.

But Skye it can be done cheaply, Take it from someone who's "poor boy'd" his whole system. My lighting currently consists of a $65 4-55w PC fixture (Ebay again) and a scabbed together 48" shoplight fixture, about $18 with good bulbs installed. And I do grow Xenia like a weed.

As for the Off-road lights, if they're like all the others I've seen they're very yellow right? probably in the 2000-4000k range, Which I'm sure can work but doesn't provide what most coral really want, or the appearance they deserve IMO. Not very efficient either it would seem and at what those may have cost you, you could easily piece together a great system of MH and VHO light.

Try Ebay (but get details before bidding) or Jon's suggestions, or talk to an electrician, I'm meeting one tomorrow who's promised to get me some MH fixtures he's salvaged as thanks for getting him some good work recently. If he comes through I may have some extra that I could set you up with (no promises, but we'll see).

I got my entire DIY system canopy and stand(built myself), dual 175 watt mh cooltouch retrokit(ebay), reflector(ebay), fans(Radio Shack), and moonlights(ebay) for about $400. I'm adding the original 4x55 watt Top pc system that is currently lighting my system to this DIY project and will have a grand total of 570 watts. I agree with chrissic, try DIY... and before considering any bulbs that "may" do the job, try to find info on the true kelvin rating.

     Jason

chrisslc what rough wattage do you run per gallon? Sounds like you have a 4 foot tank. I too have a shop light over my odd shaped guppie tank. Too funny. E-bay hu.....

The off road lights I have in my storage... They were like 4 for 100$ I need to put them on my 4x4   But hey parts are parts..

Good thread so far.... Thanx

Also w/o reading all the posts...  my 110g has 9.27 watts per gallon, 55g has 4.7 watts per gallon and my 6g has 5.33 watts per gallon.

I would like to add thought...  watts per-gallon is not a real good method of determining how much lighting a tank has.

ssilcox wrote: A 150W DE (HQI) bulb with the right reflector can give more light than a 400W mogul base metal halide

I have always heard the 250DE equal the output of a 400w mogul.  Do you have a link to any articles?  I wish I would have went DE...  next time  .

so is it the depth of the water that affects lighting the most? I hear alot of where the corals are in the tank makes a big difference. So if I have a 48x18x20 75 gallon tank and it had a hard time growing stuff and put the same 220 watts of PC on a 48x16x16 55 gallon tank, would that make a difference? I have 30 gallon tanks that are 20 inches tall. Thats almost my 80 gallons height. Is that the thinking is depth? Is that why you want REALLY intence lighting is to penetrate the tanks water? I have a tank that is 10inches x 10 inches x 6.5 feet long. Would that need as much lighting to raise coral as  a 30 gallon thats roughly 36x12x18 heigh? It's the same volume of water.....

Here is the "Adam Philosophy".

Light Needed = X N

Light Needed is a figure you make up for your self.  X is how powerful the bulbs are.  N is the number of bulbs needed. 
So, the deeper the tank, the bigger the X you need.  The longer the tank, the more N you need.  So if your tank is like 12 feet long, and one foot deep, like a propagation tank, you need like Six 150 watt halides.  But if your tank is only 3 feet long, but 3 feet tall, you need like One 400 watt halide.

Make sense?  that is how I see it.

Adam 

So here is a couple articles on PPFD of various 150W DE, 250W DE, and 400W mogul lamps. I stand corrected - 150W 10k's get close to some of the 20k 400W bulbs, but the 250W DE's definately are equal to or right out beat them. Of course much depends on the bulb and even the ballast used.

250W DE's

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/feature1.htm - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/feature1.htm

150W DE's

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/feature2.htm - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/feature2.htm

400W Moguls

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/feature2.htm - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/feature2.htm

Depth of the aquarium is a very important consideration.  Light falls off with the square of it's distance.  Look at the charts here:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/feature.htm - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2003/feature.htm

Measurements at 6" peak at around 2800, at 9" from the bulb it drops to 1500 (roughly half of the light is left), and at 12" it is down to 800 (only 29% of the light reaches this depth)

While we don't usually have equipment to measure this way anything is more useful than the old "watts per gallon" rule.

My 2 cents...

ssilcox wrote: Of course much depends on the bulb and even the ballast used.

Good point.  I'm running 10k XM's which I've read are one of the leading bulbs for par output.  They are ran on a standard 400w magnetic ballast but I've also read overdriving the bulbs with HQI ballasts shortens the life of the bulb??

Adam Blundell wrote: Here is the "Adam Philosophy".

Good philosophy IMO.  One thing that could add to the equation is the color temp of the bulbs when speaking MHs.  20k bulbs produce less par than a 10k generally so a higher wattage could be used is a shallower tank to compensate.

Unfortunately those bright shop lights are Halogen Bulbs and by what I remember are about 3000K.  They would certainly add a lot of cheap light to an aquarium, but you would not be adding the light that the corals want most.  I personally researched this option and decided that it just wasn't the route for me.

I think I said something like this in another post, but I'll repeat it here since I think it's very much worth consideration... If it were me I would go to Lowes or Home Depot and get 2 cheap 48" shoplights with 2 bulbs each.  I got one for $12.00 at Lowes that plugs in rather than having to be hardwired.  Then get 4 10K bulbs or 3 10K bulbs and 1 actinic.  The Aquarium bulbs at lowes are $6 I believe. I haven't found actinic anywhere but LFS and they are expensive. Like $30.  Put these on your tank for the next 6 months or so while you save up the $$$ to get the lighting you really want.

While I understand the desire to go cheap as possible, (I fought this same problem for almost a year now,) you will be more happy with the "real" thing and so will your corals.  Again the most important thing about keeping aquariums is patience.  "I know! Practice what you preach."

After all 8 more 250 Watt MH DE's and my 180 will be set for life.

As to another post of yours I don't think the wattage needs to be any different for a 75 gallon vs 55 gallon although you could physically put more over the 75.

Skye, everything you've thought of and probably more has already been thought of, tried and found lacking.  If you don't have the $$$ to spend on MH/VHO go take a look at Steve Lopez's tank, sjlopez39.  He has normal output flourescents but has a very beautiful softie tank.  ymmv.

Very good read check it out:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/feature.htm - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/feature.ht m

Kirk,

Don't look at me... ask the presidency.

Adam

Skyetone

For what its worth,

I am running 9.98 watts of light over my 125 reef tank (SPS & Clam freak beyond any shadow of doubt!).  Its a combo of 400 watt halides, 160 watt VHO's and 4 32 watt PC's in the halide pendents.

75 gallon grow out tank has 5.46 watts per a gallon.  Its a combo of 110 watt VHO's with 2 40 watt blue moon NO's.  It has lots of Softies (something new for me) and a few SPS coral frags.

65 has 2 x 110 VHO's and 2 x Blue Moon 40 watt NO's.  Has fish and a couple of softies.

I kinda have the opinion that Halide/VHO combo is the best type of lighting for anything other than Soft corals, in which case I would recommend VHO's.  On a Nano Reef, I can see some justification for PC's.  I havent tested the T-5 HO's yet but I did see a tank with SPS that looked to be doing really well with it.  Said tank was a frag grow-out tank though.

I personally dont really see too much use for the watts per a gallon "formula".  Its a very vague propisition in my opinion due to tank hight and light penetration issues.  Guess it cant really hurt though too much.

Adam/Presidency

I can order a light meter in for cost for club member use. The meter is a analog display with a submersible probe which will tell you the lighting in diffrent depths

Cost is $40.00 which i think it would be a good investment for the club....

Eric,

Marine Aquatics Inc.

Eric,

I would like to read up on them, what make and model are you suggesting?

Dave

I would much rather see money spent on something like this which measures PAR rather then lux:

http://www.arabidopsis.com/main/cat/PPF/qss01new.htm - http://www.arabidopsis.com/main/cat/PPF/qss01new.htm

Here are the specs for the meter:  http://www.apogee-inst.com/pdf_files/qmss.pdf - http://www.apogee-inst.com/pdf_files/qmss.pdf

$40 is way cheap.  I think some people were looking or expecting a probe set up of like $200.  If this is what people have been talking about, then for $40 call it a done deal.

Kirk, and everyone else, is this what you guys were wanting?

Adam

Jon,

Like two blocks from my house.  I've been there a few times.  I'll swing by and see what I can find sometime next week.

Adam

In centerville or have you moved?

What other "stuff" might one find in the store?

Jon,

Sorry other house.  I actually live on UofU property, right here where I work. Kind of a way to keep lab rats in the lab.  The surplus store is here on campus, they have old keyboards ($5) monitors ($10), desks ($10), shelves ($5) and a bunch of other stuff they remove from rooms when the get new equipment.

It's like a wherehouse of junk.  You know like NPS and Market Square.

Adam 

i really want to learn more about par values in my tank and i was wondering if the club ever acquired a par meter and if it is available to members for use or rent?

i'm especially interested since i have new bulbs and would be interested to get some readings and compare them in 3, 6, 9, and 12 months  

Coreyk,

Bug the presidency (but not me) about it.  They've mentioned it before, but never bought one.

Adam

thanks adam ... i'll start a thread in the recommendations area. :)