And if you like it or not, and why?

 

I have a Remora HOB.  It works pretty good and pulls about a cup of gunk a day. But its kind of noisy and in the market for a different one.

 

Not really sure what to get, hence this post...

 

Do you want another HOB, In Sump or External Skimmer? Also what is the size of your tank? I've heard the Remora's are a little loud.

 

Personally I don't use a skimmer but to get some good advice I think that these questions will help.

 

What size tank / total water volume do you have - and do you have a sump to put a skimmer into?

Do you like your Dual Octo skimmer Bob? Why or why not?

 

Adam

 

 

 

I would think that I would need the 1050 model for my size setup; the 840 (8" cone base, 4" neck, mini Airstar pump) is only rated to a max of 249 gal. and I'm closer to 300 total gals. The ATB 1050 model (10" base, 5.5" neck, 2 X Mini Airstar pump) retails at $1000+...

 

Now, I could go with the SWC 250 1A Extreme Cone - which has an 11" cone base and 5.75" neck, plus the Askoll 1500 pump, and is rated max 400 gal heavy bioload  - and it retails for about the same price as the smaller ATB 840. I'm thinking that the larger 250 1A outperforms the smaller 840 by a significant margin as well...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While I do agree that MSX, RO, and SWC have the best bang for your buck for retail but when I get a discount I will take my chances on ATB and others and know that my money is being very well spent. ATB skimmers and other high end German skimmers are not for everyone though. They certainly aren't for me right now!

edit - the rest of my post could have incited a lot of drama with Keith and Dion. So I cleaned it up. 

I kind of resent your assumption that just because we run a tried and true skimmer that somehow we are inferior. How do you make the assumption that the others are much better? Price? Hype? A glossy add in the fish magazine.

 

Not to jump on you but its kind of an interesting statement when you yourself don't run a tank big enough to use any of these skimmers. I would love to see your opinions after you actually used a asm and then one of the superior units and actually could describe the experience that you had rather than riding the hype.

 

I would like to hear from members that have used these different type of skimmers on their same system and the performance differences they experienced.

 

Again not to be on Ryan's case. I just get tired of people repeating hype.

Why don't you call Rob at Marine Solutions and ask him why he stopped carrying ASM? You do know that he started the site asmskimmers.com and was selling 5-6 skimmers a day. He switched his whole line of skimmers because he found a skimmer that is more reliable and had better performance. The numbers prove that and that is a FACT.

So don't believe the hype because I don't. I believe the numbers and and the masses show that ASM is pretty crappy in the end. I don't care if one person has a good experience, I care what the masses say.

I used an ASM and was not impressed. The pump had issues and it tool 8 weeks to cure rock. I guarantee I could have done it faster with a better skimmer. My skimmer will be here tomorrow and will be up and running in less than a month. I will write a review when I get it.

BTW Dion, you may want to read threads where people have compared a lot of skimmers.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1589426 - http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1589426

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1518115 - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1518115

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1532624 - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1532624

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1571129 - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1571129

 

I would like to hear from real world experience just how much more skimate was pulled out. Darker? Faster? Did you notice any changes to your system? Was your ASM modified In any way?

 

I'm trying to see the justification behind the cost of those animals and how it might improve my system.

Everything from seaclones-cpr-prizm's, coralifes to asm, euroreef, octo, octo extreme, many DIY versons, the thing to remember is every system is different and the heart of any skimmer is the pump.

 

People really do get caught up in the SCFH hype and every skimmer i've ever had i've modded to an unhealthy level, lol.

I see a ton of tanks who run ridiculously oversized skimmers and have poor performance, RC is full of threads like this.

 

A good example are the new RE/Vertex cones, they are one of the nicest looking skimmers out, a cone on top of that, and are powered by one of the best most reliable pumps out there the askoll/red dragon, yet there are tons of complaints because people with smaller systems aren't getting much skimmate.

 

In my old club back in ohio most of the people have switched from custom needlewheel skimmers BACK to becketts which most people thought were inferior.  In their case the extra electricity usage was worth it and they have much better results with becketts.

 

The craze now seems to be to get 200scfh and ten watts and its somehow going to work better.  I agree that there are many better constructed skimmers than an asm skimmer that pull a lot more air but consistency is important as well.

 

I recently sold my euroreef 8-1 and replaced it with an octo extreme 160 with the large PPW, it is probably pulling four times the air the euroreef pulled, but it isn't consistent.  The power went out and our housesitter can't figure out how to get it back on because it won't restart on its own.  So now one of our tanks has been "GASP" skimmerless for three weeks.

 

I have a HUGE bioload  including 15 full sized tangs that eat 4-5 sheets of nori daily so for me the best skimmer is my giant ugly dart needlewheel DIY, i've ran three separate skimmers, an asm G6 with about a dozen different pump modifications and eventually i just went with the old tried and true beast.

 

For new skimmers out there, the bubbleblasters and askoll pumps are great, my only experience with the sicce has been extrememly unimpressed, but perhaps that will change with  the new unidirectional volutes. 

 

From many i've talked to the 300a mentioned earier is one of the best buys out there right now for skimmers.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure there are some here that can say how they compared to each other on their system. If you haven't ran both on the same system then its hard to compare

I agree 100%. I do have to research to come to my own opinions. I just say what my research has found.

 

I preferred the 200 over the G4 for 2 reasons:

 

1) I modded both pumps (Sedra 5000 on the G4 and OR3500 on the Octo) with meshmodded impeller, enlarged volute and larger air intake tubing. Both handled the mods well, but I was able to pull more air with the OR than the Sedra. This tranlated to more air / less water into the skimmer body, and I was able to adjust the Octo to skim 'drier' than the ASM.  Not a HUGE performance difference between the 2 skimmers, and it may not even be important to everyone, but my personal preference is to skim "dry" - and I could do that better with the Octo

 

2) Cost, as in cost of a new one today. Back 5 - 10 years ago, when tehse skimmers were considered "cutting edge technology", these 2 skimmers both cost about the same to buy new. Today the ASM goes for around $400, while the Octo price has dropped down to around $230. Since they are of similar design and performance, IMO, the Octo wins big-time in the "bang for the buck" department vs. the ASM on retail pricing

 

Where the ASM does shine is as used equipment... Since they are relatively plentiful, easy to find parts for, and not the "newest tech" - in a hobby where pricing is greatly driven (overdriven?) by "hype" - they depreciate considerably, and can usually be picked up used for a great price.

 

 

 

What I mean is that, in many cases (but not all), meager real-world performance differences are touted as "night and day" type of differences, usually to justify a large pricing differential or to sell a newer piece of equipment.

 

Couple that with the tendency for gross overkill just for the sake of "outdoing the Joneses", and it is sometimes difficult to glean accurate advice on certain subjects. Especially on RC, where guys run $900 ATB Cones on 40g breeder setups and swear that no other skimmer could work for that application, or a $2K SuperMarin on a 90g reef tank just so they can "show off"... I've come across several RC regulars whose skimmer A) cost more than their entire rest of their setup - and livestock - combined; B) is running on maybe 1/10th the rated water volume and hardly pulling any crap out of their water because it is just plain TOO BIG for the job at hand; and C) the rest of their setup is mediocre at best, and their display tank looks...well, "crappy" by comparison, because all they have is maybe $100 worth of "run of the mill" corals and 2 lousy fish in their display tank that is being serviced by that thousand dollar skimmer...

 

I think the best think anyone could do, when considering new equipment, is to actually find someone with the equipment and see it "in action"... sometimes you will be suprised at what "works" well and what doesn't. Having the resource of the WMAS is great because you can literally do that; find someone who actually runs what you are interested in and then go check it out, in person, ask questions, and judge for yourself.

 

Dion is a perfect example. "On paper", a G3 on a 280g volume system is "way too small" - but I've seen his setups and, based on what I saw, I wouldn't change a thing...

 

Much better, IMO, than relying on RC posters - many of who are great at regurgitating information they have read or been told, but lacking any real knowledge or experience to back up their opinions. And many on RC have their own agendas that tend to bias their opinions, along with too much sponsor "influence" on that site for my taste (IMO).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Think of filtration systems, All mechanical, plenum, wet dry, bio balls, refugiums, etc. All were state of the art at one time and all have there good and bad. Who knows where we will be in 10 years.

 

Heck 4 years ago I wouldn't take a t5 fixture if you gave me one. (I had one and it sucked. ) Now with the t-5ho units Ryan finally wins and I'm a big fan of them.

 

How do you really feel about RC?

 

I feel the same way about Reef Central. Lots of BS and not a lot of "Real" substance.

 

I wish I could fit that in a signiture line.......On my RC account

 

 

Hey Burt

 

I really don't want to come off like I have an axe to grind against RC

 

I'm just not too big a fan of the "atmosphere" over there

 

Alot of info over there - but not alot of knowledge

 

And kind of a 'harsh' enviroment; especially for newbs

 

If a newbie posts a thread on RC to (for example) ask how to make the Corallife Super Skimmer he just bought work better on his 55g reef, he'll get 20 - 30 flame posts ridiculing not just the skimmer but him for buying it, warning him that his tank will "crash" if he as much as plugs in the skimmer (OK, exaggerating a bit here but you get the point), and may not even get one "helpful" post - because anybody else out there who actually has one of the same skimmers is afraid to post a suggestion for fear they will, in turn, get roasted...

 

Here on WMAS, the same new person would be welcomed to the site, would be asked a few follow up questions to maybe guide the theme of any suggestions, and if someone felt the need to inform the new guy that there may be better skimmer choices out there at least they would be nice about it (we all hope)...

 

I guess the best indicator of the difference for me is that my RC account was created in 2002 (so, going on 8 years now) - and I think I have maybe 500-ish posts there.

 

Been here at WMAS since 2006 (half the time), and I have 5X that many posts here.

 

It's just more fun here

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I feel the same way. Just pulling your chain.

I agree 110% with this statement! There is a ton of hype when it comes to lighting and skimmers but there is a lot of truth out there too.

I think the NUMBER ONE MOST IMPORTANT thing in our tanks is......FLOW! It is so much more important then the greatest lighting and best filtration setup.

First example:

In a seahorse tank you want very little flow, correct? Are we all following? So is lighting or the LACK of flow more important in that situation? Oh what did I hear? Flow (or lack of it) is more important than lighting Ryan in a seahorse tank. Oh ok got ya!

Second example:

So here we setup an SPS dominated tank. We have SPS from top to bottom and left to right. We go out and buy the biggest, baddest LED/T5/MH/Plasma lighting combo we can find. We spend $2,000 in just lighting. Oh shoot the budget is gone for any additional powerheads or a closed loop system. That's ok though because flow isn't important. I will blast my corals with tons of lighting so that they hit the point of photo-saturation. The corals start losing color and bleach on us. What can the problem be??? We have enough lighting. We even have the best biological and mechanical filtration on the planet. What is wrong with our tank?!?!?

Third example....

We setup a mixed reef tank. We have SPS, softies, LPS and even clams. We have the sweetest lighting for this setup. Not too much and just enough for SPS and clams. We have good filtration with a good skimmer and even a refugium. We do water changes and keep the tank looking good. We even have some extra flow with some powerheads but there are dead spots in the tank. Six months in here comes hair algae and cyano bacteria. We start freaking out!!! !@#$, MF%%(%, What the @(@(#???!?!?

The entire six months we had a dead spot where detritus was settling all over behind the rocks. Well the detritus built up and is now leaching phosphates and nitrates back into the tank. We can't control it because our "great" refugium and "great" skimmer never get a shot to filter the water before the algae consumes the nutrients.

Again what is more important, the right lighting? The best filtration under the hood? Or would a simple powerhead pointing behind the rocks keeping the back area clean of settling waste have fixed the issue from Day One?

I will leave it up to you to decide...

 

 I haven't laughed so hare since before Christmas.

 

I'm really enjoying this thread, even though I don't have a Skimmer.

Euro reef for my 65g

And Deltec AP702 for my 225.

WAY overpriced, but it works for me.

 

 

 

 

Your right 

 

 

 

Hey Keith would you say it please!!

Ryan is a t5 nut

I am a controller nut

So, that said, get a used ASM (maybe modded) that fits your tank size. Unless you are running a way overcrowded tank it will do just fine and you will have coin left over for a sweet controller and proper lighting that will save you money on tank crashes and electricity in the long run.

I think its better to have decent lights, a decent skimmer, decent flow, and a decent controller than to have the best of one of them and none (or crap) in one of the others.

 

It was unavoidable. A lot of folks are passionate about their skimmers.

http://www.aquacave.com/rdii-bubble-king-deluxe-650-br-internal-protein-skimmer-2624.html - http://www.aquacave.com/rdii-bubble-king-deluxe-650-br-internal-protein-skimmer-2624.html

 

That's why I haven't bought one.

 

OMG 8K

 

 

For $8K+ you think they would have a picture of the actual skimmer you would be getting for that kind of cash (the picture shown is a much smaller model)

 

Then again, if you have that kind of $$$ to blow on a skimmer you probably just throw it out when it gets grungy looking and buy another one

 

 

 

 

The $8000 skimmer Jeff posted about - aquacave has the wrong picture on it.

 

Here is what the BK650 really looks like:

 

http://glassbox-design.com/2009/santa-klaus-delivers-the-bubble-king/ - http://glassbox-design.com/2009/santa-klaus-delivers-the-bubble-king/

 

Still crazy to pay 8 grand for a skimmer - but at least it looks "cleanable"

 

 

 

You know you want it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On another note I think it should be said that some people don't understand why a certain skimmer costs so much. I will try to explain it the way I understand it.

I learned all if this a few weeks ago when speaking with Victor over at ATB Skimmers. Very nice guy and they have amazing skimmers. Very well built, strong materials, not cheap acrylic, and some of the best customer service in the industry. You call Vicotr and tell him you have problems with his stuff and he will send you a brand new pump (or whatever needs replacing) and pay to ship the broken stuff back. That is quality customer service.

Anyways on to the numbers part of things. So while talking to Victor he explained why the cheapest ATB skimmer is $650 retail. The skimmer is not made with acrylic but with PVC. There is no glue, everything is heat welded together. The parts and labor are not cheap on ATB skimmers. Everything is produced in Austria and then shipped here to the States. He said his cost after shipping and taxes was $350 for that one skimmer. He then sells the skimmer wholesale for $550 and they have MAP pricing set at $650.

I don't know or even care what the science is behind PVC over acrylic and no glue. Their bodies are seamless and therefore nothing can come apart at a seam.

So all in all, yes some skimmers are expensive and some are cheap. I have found in this hobby the age old saying of "You get what you pay for" applies to 99% of the things we buy.

You want a tank like Brad Syphus', you are going to pay for it. Just ask him!

 

Yes both are modified.

 

While so true in so much of this hobby. Its also true that you don't need a skimmer of that magnitude either.

Even if I did want a $600+ skimmer, there is no way I would pay retail or even buy it new. 

Again, here comes my soapbox, why would anyone buy a $800 skimmer instead of a $300 one that would work just fine and buy an Apex with the other $500. I think your chances for better corals and fish survivability and care would be better by a factor of 2.

I think if people get adequate hardware on a number of items as opposed to the best or overkill on one, they would be much better off.

I say those that need to brag about skimmers, touting bubbles, crud expulsion, etc might just be compensating...

 

(Although I hadnt considerd the over compensating thing.....)

I agree and have never said you HAVE to have a big skimmer. I just think it helps more than it hurts. A good skimmer allows me to feed more and keep my fish and corals happier. JMO.

I am not here trying to tell anyone they need the expensive skimmers. But then again I think expensive is all relative. When I am planning on spending $10,000 on a 200 gallon setup, I am not worried that my skimmer cost me $600 to $700.

In the end the cone was pulling out three times more skimmate than the other two skimmers. It was quite an eye opener for me at least.

Before I bought my big tank, I spent many many hours researching for skimmers that were good.  The tanks that inspired me were the ones that always had premium equipment.

I wanted a tank that I could grow acro and have alot of fish.

I bought my setup used on RC and it came with my skimmer.  I paid 3 grand for the whole setup and it was only used for one year.

The only items I have bought brand new is my neptune ACIII and my maristar light fixture.

Other than that , everything has been bought used.

Good reliable equipment is what you want as you mentioned.

I'm not rich by any means, but I have put alot of money into my tanks.  It's my one pleasure that keeps me poor.

Also, I think that the best indicator of whose advice to take on matters like this is that of people that currently have a great tank and seeing what they are doing. If one takes advice from someone else, it often is like going to a Ferrari owners forum that has 10x as many posters as there are Ferraris in existence. Many go on and on about things they know little about having read this or heard that or seen this or heard that...but guess what, they don't even own a Ferrari! Now, that said, if someone is a Ferrari mechanic or past enthusiast and can put that on the line, well then their credibility goes up a lot.

I am a marketer. I know the level of hype out there in anything that is marketed. I have hyped products, I have planted shills.  

Too many people believe the hype and worse, the shills.

WMAS keeps it real. Let's keep it that way.

That goes for any skimmer.

 

Well Terrence, I care that Marine Solutions had a sponsorship on RC because that is where their forum was. With no forum I don't have the link or the numbers on their test. Other than that I don't care who is on RC, I don't even care who sponsors WMAS.

Alright, the tanks I like. Brad's and he uses a high end Deltec skimmer. My uncle's and he uses a high end brand but the name escapes me right now. Sunny's at Rimless Reef and he uses a high end Deltec. Iwan Lasser's tanks and I am pretty sure he uses either Bubble King or ATI Bubble Master skimmers.

So the recurring theme I see here is that a nice skimmer helps a tank go a long way. Those are the tanks I like, so sue me. I have said it before that I don't want my tanks to look like most of the tanks I see here in the club. I am NOT bashing anyone or the ways they do things. I just don't care for a softies tank or an algae filled tank. I like an SPS dominated tank and there are very few of those here on the site.

Its quite and dose a great job right out of the box.
Easy to setup and to adjust.

I have also had a Corallife and hated it.. didnt pull "crap" and was a pain to keep adjusted.

Don't be so quick to turn correlation into causation. There are probably many reasons their tanks are that good, and the skimmer is just one part and may not be the key component to making it a success when compared to a lowly ASM for instance.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation )

Ryan Thompson wrote:  I am NOT bashing anyone or the ways they do things. I just don't care for a softies tank or an algae filled tank. I like an SPS dominated tank and there are very few of those here on the site.

 

Excellent point.

Im getting this one for my 120

http://www.precisionmarine.com/html/redline_series.html - http://www.precisionmarine.com/html/redline_series.html