20g Sump Plans - Complete
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Topic: 20g Sump Plans - Complete
Posted By: Ahanix
Subject: 20g Sump Plans - Complete
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 1:17am
Alright, so I picked up a 20 Gallon Long Tank today in preparation for re-doing the things I don't like about my current setup. I've been doing some research and put together a plan for the sump That I think should work out nicely and not waste any space in the sump. Of course the biggest reason that I posted this on here was to get feedback to see what I should change to make this better, or get a good to go from all of you.
Anyways, without further ado, here is the picture of the plans I am thinking of moving forward with
Starting from left to right, this is how it is built up
1: Overflow Dropoff Section (12x12x7 - 4.5 Gallons)
Overflow drain, this is 1 1/4 Flex PVC, Ending in a 45 degree angle, down to a t, and a 90 degree elbow. I figure I would give the water two exit points to remove any restrictions at the end of the piping, that and also make it so I can utilize two filter socks in my system instead of one big one. The baffle in this section is 7" tall, which is about the perfect hight for my skimmer. This portion is around 4 1/2 Gallons when full
2: Return area (5x12x7 - ~ 2 Gallons )
This area will hold my Rio 12HF, In order to make my tank silent, I will need to turn down the flow in the return quite a bit, but also to save the pump from any unnecessary built up pressure, I decided to run an additional line with a T to my fuge, which will be placed on the far right and will dump back to the main return chamber.
The main return portion will run up to black flex pond hose after the 45 degree PVC Elbows
3: Fuge (13x12x9 - 6 Gallons)
As you can see in the picture, water will dump in here from the return line and should give adequate flow to allow organisms to grow successfully
This will also give 7.5 Gallons of overflow water in the case of power outage, I don't think I will ever need that much water room, but nevertheless its enough.
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Replies:
Posted By: Luckedout
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 10:24am
looks good to me. What about your current setup do you not like?
Only suggestion, I've seen some tanks use a Y joint when splitting off to 2 returns to cut down on the flow restriction of a T. I'm not sure where they find them because I haven't seen them around, but it's a thought.
Oh and a ball valve on your return is nice to have as well when you shut off your pump for whatever reason.
------------- -Ben
90g Mixed reef
www.body-balancechiropractic.com
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Posted By: dukester48
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 10:42am
I have bought wye's here before.
http://flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-Wyes - http://flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-Wyes
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Posted By: dukester48
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 10:44am
Also..., why would you have your return pump break off to the refuge rather than have your drain split off? Seems like it would save you a lot of pump power.....
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Posted By: Ahanix
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 10:54am
For my current setup I am using a 20 gallon high tank, not that bad but I feel like I could have more water volume, that and my new stand is a little bit shorter, so I wanted something that would fit my stand a bit better and give me more room for my Skimmer and a possible fuge,
Second part I don't like is my overflow piping is rigid PVC, so I'm getting the water/air mixture in my piping, not that bad but I would prefer a silent tank.
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Posted By: Luckedout
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 10:55am
Do you use a Durso or Gurgle buster?
------------- -Ben
90g Mixed reef
www.body-balancechiropractic.com
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Posted By: Ahanix
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 10:58am
dukester48 wrote:
Also..., why would you have your return pump break off to the refuge rather than have your drain split off? Seems like it would save you a lot of pump power..... |
The only reason that I had it split off from the return rather than the drain is due to the fact that I will be cutting my return pump about 50% from its max to silence my overflow. I was thinking that the built up pressure probably wont be good for the pump so I set it up like that. If that's a bad idea I'm just fine with throwing the fuge in the middle and the return on the right to skip that whole process
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Posted By: Luckedout
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 11:10am
No, it's a good thought if you aren't using all the flow from your pump. It's a bad thought if you don't have enough flow.
------------- -Ben
90g Mixed reef
www.body-balancechiropractic.com
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Posted By: Ahanix
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 11:44am
Luckedout wrote:
Do you use a Durso or Gurgle buster?
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I have a glass-holes 700gph overflow kit. The elbow out the back has a hole drilled in it with a piece of tubing to help the air. I was thinking about doing a reverse durso at the end, but that will only get rid of bubbles after where the noise issue is
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 3:24pm
Nice clear drawing and very cool that you came here for suggestions.
I agree that the drain line is much better used to send water to the
Refugium. After all, that's using the dirtier water from the main
display to grow all kinds of bugs and algae. This is a major purpose of a
Refugium. The nighttime pH improvement with RDP (Reverse Daylight
Photosynthesis) is the other major purpose.
Why split the return? The best part of a sump is the RDP Refugium. Why
not have all the water go through the Refugium? See the pic at the
bottom of this post. With so much of the necessary flow in a reef tank being created by powerheads inside the display, we no longer have to worry about too much flow through a Refugium. In fact Refugiums grow even faster and filter more water better if they get a lot more flow.
A Return pump should always be rated for more flow than needed. The time
may come when it will need to be throttled up and then you will be glad
you plumbed it that way. A ball valve right above the output of the return pump can be a great extra feature.
Another consideration would be, if there is enough extra flow from the return pump, to run a branch to the Skimmer. Does that make sense?
I don't like baffles and have found ways around them, but if you like them, at least take out
the baffle between the skimmer and return pump. Most people don't
realize the value of this. Let me explain. The small area as you have it
will require top off too frequently. Even with an auto top-off operated
by float or solenoid, the problems associated with lack of water during
some kind of failure are much less when there is a larger reservoir of
water. There is also the simple matter of the frequency of the topoff
switch cycling on-off. Larger area means less switching and prolonged
life. Make sense? Oh, and the winter heater can go horizontally or at least diagonally in this area of the sump when the baffle is removed.
Finally, I have found a real good safety feature is to place pond liner or
several layers of heavy plastic sheet underneath the Sump/Refugium. I
tack this liner up the side of the stand 3-6 inches and even tack it to an
extra board in the stand doorway. This creates a pan into which water is captured in case of overflow or other water spill/leak.
 This pic was taken about a month or two after setup. At first the Utah Rock wall was there to help slow the water and allow bubbles to rise. (When Chaeto fills in top to bottom and side to side the bubbles stick to it and combine, then rise easily up through the algae.) After I added the floss bag the bubbles mostly disappeared so the rock was no longer needed and eventually disappeared as I used it for mounting coral frags. The return pump is a Rio 2500 but what can't be seen is a closed loop circulation system powered by a 1200 gph external pump hanging on a spring suspended platform way above the Refugium. 
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Ahanix
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 3:38pm
Thanks for the helpful information Mark. I will play around with the configuration a bit before I run to the store tonight. The only concern I had about placing the return pump in the same area as the overflow return is the issue with keeping a constant water level for my Skimmer. If I knew that this would not be an issue I would be fine with only having one baffle
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 3:54pm
More added to my post above.
Understood. Are you planning on a topoff system? If so, the constant level problem is solved. (Another reasoin that I don't bother with a Skimmer. )
The problem of air bubbles from the skimmer being drawn into the return pump can be perplexing. Do you have a plan for that?
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Posted By: Will Spencer
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 4:02pm
Ahanix wrote:
Thanks for the helpful information Mark. I will play around with the configuration a bit before I run to the store tonight. The only concern I had about placing the return pump in the same area as the overflow return is the issue with keeping a constant water level for my Skimmer. If I knew that this would not be an issue I would be fine with only having one baffle |
In this case you could make the skimmer side just big enough for the skimmer thus allowing the return section to be as big as possible.
I agree with Mark on this subject though. I've always wondered why the return section of a sump is so small thus necessitating frequent top offs.
My favorite sump was completely open and held about 30 gallons of water with room for overflow in case of a power failure. I could go weeks without topping off and then add 20-25 gallons of water at a time. Not that I suggest this, but it worked for me.
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Posted By: Ahanix
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 4:05pm
My Skimmer is currently pushing back water that does not have any visible bubbles. That or thsey are gone by the time they reach the return pump so I'm not too worried about that part. At this time I'm not planning a top off system. I probably will add one in the future but my evaporation hasn't been bad enough to warrant the expense (sg is stable)
Ill see what I can do about my Skimmer area. My Skimmer has a 6x7" footprint so it shouldn't be too hard
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 4:33pm
Oh man, I just remembered something. Will didn't you have a floating Refugium at one time? And other people have used plastic containers to hold things, instead of baffles. Could you get or make a container just the right size that would just surround the skimmer.... ?
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Posted By: Ahanix
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 10:52pm
Thanks for everyones suggestions
After doing a bit more research, and a trip to the hardware store, I came up with this idea, seems practical and should work out great
I decided to go down to only 1 baffle, this was cut and is 8 1/2 inches high. I will be setting my overflow area to 11 inches. Leaving 19 inches for the sump/return area
For the second area, I decided that I am going to get a plastic container, place sand, LR and macro inside of it. This way, if I ever need to take it out for any reason, I can just pull it right out, this idea seemed very good to me, due to the fact that I am not sure if I will be keeping sand in my fuge or not. Also, it will isolate itself away from the return pump, and will also give my return pump a large amount of water volume to work with.
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Posted By: Luckedout
Date Posted: October 20 2010 at 11:14pm
Looks good. Only thing I would do that's different is a ball valve on the return. You'll want to make sure you have enough room for any flood control as well. Your water level is a bit higher than I would be comfortable with, but I didn't catch the size of this sump.
------------- -Ben
90g Mixed reef
www.body-balancechiropractic.com
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Posted By: Ahanix
Date Posted: October 21 2010 at 12:22am
Ah, yeah. No worries, I actually only need ~3 gallons of space for what drains out of my tank. (I have my tank set up with a siphon break and the return lines are higher than my overflow. I was going to throw a ball valve on it, but with my tank stand, I have to pull my sump out of the top, so this will be pretty permanent once its in there.
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Posted By: Ahanix
Date Posted: October 26 2010 at 10:15pm
Well, here's my sump with the plumbing done (I didn't show the return as my pump is still in my breeder, but I thought this would be the only chance I would have of showing a good top down shot
I did some more research and came up with a good solid reverse durso for my return, this should take out any air that might be in my pipes when the water reaches my tank, removing any extra micro bubbles and the sound of water and air hitting the water in the sump.
I decided to go with one baffle, and have a 11x10x6 clear plastic container that I will use to keep live rock and some chaeto.
 
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Posted By: Nick801
Date Posted: October 26 2010 at 11:34pm
let us know how that durso drain works out =)
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 9:59am
That looks nice. Okay, you wanted comments right? Now consider that if for some reason the overflow fails and water stops draining from the tank above, what will happen? For the solution, see the pic I posted earlier in this thread and the explanation below.
Another comment is about the use of that tiny Refugium container and so much unused space around the return pump. I have found the systems that maximize the size of the area for sand and Macroalgae in the RDP Refugium, do much better than those with a small space. I cannot think of anyone that has chosen to take the sand out of their Refugium! There's just no argument for that. Notice that I don't even mention the use of LR in a Refugium. There is a reason for that. Rock takes up space that algae could be using. It would be better to use 2-6" of Oolitic sand and set the powerhead return pump on a pedestal so that it cannot be fouled by sand and even more important, so it cannot push all the water out of the Refugium and flood the display tank.  In that pic, the pedestal is a Swamp Cooler pump strainer basket. The powerhead sits in another basket to prevent Macroalgae from getting stuck in the intake. The reason there is no sand in that Refugium was mostly because the display had an average 6" of sandbed! If I had found that filtration was insufficient, 4" of sand was ready to go into the Refugium. I just love how we have access to an unlimited amount of sand.


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Posted By: Ahanix
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 11:56am
Thanks again for the input mark. I'll definitely look into the issue with the return pump having access to the 8g of water. As for the fuge. The #1 reason why I am doing it this way is because I am still not sold on the whole refugium idea. This way I can do a study to compare the differences between running a fuge and just using a sump to hide all the mechanical goodies that we dont want anyone to see.
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Posted By: Ryan Thompson
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 12:01pm
Refugium smefugium!
That is what I say. They are pointless on my tanks. Heck the way I run my tanks, I couldn't grow macro algae if I tried and that's the way I like it! There wouldn't be enough nutrients to keep the algae alive.
I have tried refugiums with DSB and tried my tanks without. If I didn't have a skimmer, I would run a refugium but since I have a skimmer and run my tank with bacteria and carbon, there is no point. I have had much better success with my current setup then my old ones.
The sump looks good to me. I have one baffle in my sump to keep the water level consistent for my skimmer. Since I started dosing bacteria to my tank, my skimmer foams like crazy and is pulling out more gunk than before.
My 2 cents.
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Posted By: Ahanix
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 12:12pm
Ryan Thompson wrote:
Refugium smefugium!That is what I say. They are pointless on my tanks. Heck the way I run my tanks, I couldn't grow macro algae if I tried and that's the way I like it! There wouldn't be enough nutrients to keep the algae alive. I have tried refugiums with DSB and tried my tanks without. If I didn't have a skimmer, I would run a refugium but since I have a skimmer and run my tank with bacteria and carbon, there is no point. I have had much better success with my current setup then my old ones. The sump looks good to me. I have one baffle in my sump to keep the water level consistent for my skimmer. Since I started dosing bacteria to my tank, my skimmer foams like crazy and is pulling out more gunk than before. My 2 cents. |
Thanks for that Ryan. That pretty much sums up my point of why I am so hesitant with the fuge idea.
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Posted By: Jeffs_little_ocean
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 12:45pm
I agree with Ryan that you dont need a fuge to have a sucessful tank. But if you have fish that enjoy eating live food, and you have a sump with some extra space in it (a place for pods to grow without predation) why not have a fuge? Plus its kind of fun to look into the fuge and see all the life. Well at least I think so. My 2 cents.
------------- Life is good....right?
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Posted By: P.Kapp
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 2:07pm
^ +1. if having a fuge means keeping my mandarin and other fish fat and happy the way they are, why not?..
------------- Preston Kapp
210 Gal Reef
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 3:24pm
We could argue all day as to which method does a better job, but it really comes down to what you are planning to keep and how you want it to look. It's easy for us sit here at our computers and talk about which system is better in a particular situation. We would probably all agree that some of our best research is to see a few systems, talk to the owners and then take what we like from each of them. A dedicated hobbyist can make any system work. Have fun.
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Posted By: Snowsrfr
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 8:45pm
I too have teed off my return pump to feed my fuge. Tyler (tcfab) actually designed my sump this way and after his explanation sounded good to me. Maybe he'll chime in. I also like the ability of being able to dump return water to my fuge rather than just throttling back my pump. The argument that you don't get "dirty" water to feed a fuge is bogus IMHO. I have tons of pods, and other little critters growing in there. The skimmer is going to suck up every molecule of water that passes by on it's way to the return, so there's plenty of dirt to feed your macro.
------------- "A fish tank is not a pet. It's a TV that you gotta feed." - John Caparulo
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Posted By: tcfab
Date Posted: October 27 2010 at 11:43pm
I have always liked the idea of feeding the fuge off the return pumps vs. feeding the fuge with one of the drain lines coming from the tank for two reasons. One is when you feed the fuge with water coming from the overflow it has air mixed in with the water (because of the durso) and it tends to gurgle inside the fuge, this tends to build up alot of salt creep all over. Second feeding it from the return makes for a much more quite sump because there is no gurgle. All of the above only works if you have a dedicated fuge chamber inside main sump or seperate from the main sump, not a pass through fuge.
Also Mark, I think baffles are very important depending on what type of filtration equipment is going to be installed in the sump. If you are going for a skimmerless tank then yeah you could probably get away with no baffles in the sump. But if someone is installing a skimmer inside there sump then it is very important that they install a baffle and have a dedicated skimmer chamber so the skimmer performs consistantly. Flucuating water levels can make a skimmer very hard to tune, if not impossible.
A sump can be very complex or pretty simple, it just depends on what is going in it.
Just my .02
------------- Need custom acrylic work? give me a call, www.Elite-Aquatics.net (801)645-6386
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Posted By: Jeffs_little_ocean
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 12:20am
Snowsrfr wrote:
I too have teed off my return pump to feed my fuge. Tyler (tcfab) actually designed my sump this way and after his explanation sounded good to me. Maybe he'll chime in. I also like the ability of being able to dump return water to my fuge rather than just throttling back my pump. The argument that you don't get "dirty" water to feed a fuge is bogus IMHO. I have tons of pods, and other little critters growing in there. The skimmer is going to suck up every molecule of water that passes by on it's way to the return, so there's plenty of dirt to feed your macro. |
I just got done looking at the sump tyler made for you and all I can say is wow, that thing is amazing. that guy has some skills! lol
------------- Life is good....right?
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 9:24am
I've heard that Tyler's work is awesome.
Yes, bugs will grow almost anywhere, but I was trying to put forth the concept that the dirtier the water, the more prolific will be the algae and bug growth. Bugs love the leftover food that comes down the drain. And the larger the Refugium, the more pollution it will "eat" from the drain water. More bugs eating waste means less skimmate (or no need for a skimmer) which means less maintenance and more bugs ending up in the display. Does this make sense?
Oh and I forgot some other major benefits. A larger Refugium is even more help at keeping nighttime pH elevated. More algae growth means there is more to be fed to the herbivorous fishes above (recycling ). Algae growth in the Refugium also inhibits algae in the display. Sponge seems to do very well and undisturbed in a Refugium adds greatly to the overall health and stability of the system. Need I go on?
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Posted By: Ryan Thompson
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 10:20am
Mark Peterson wrote:
I've heard that Tyler's work is awesome.
Yes, bugs will grow almost anywhere, but I was trying to put forth the concept that the dirtier the water, the more prolific will be the algae and bug growth. Bugs love the leftover food that comes down the drain. And the larger the Refugium, the more pollution it will "eat" from the drain water. More bugs eating waste means less skimmate (or no need for a skimmer) which means less maintenance and more bugs ending up in the display. Does this make sense?
Oh and I forgot some other major benefits. A larger Refugium is even more help at keeping nighttime pH elevated. More algae growth means there is more to be fed to the herbivorous fishes above (recycling ). Algae growth in the Refugium also inhibits algae in the display. Sponge seems to do very well and undisturbed in a Refugium adds greatly to the overall health and stability of the system. Need I go on?
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Yes, please go on Mark.
Why is it that EVERY tank that I have seen that was gorgeous (to my eyes), does not run a refugium?
I don't keep ANY herbivorous fish. I don't need a food supply for something I don't have. I dose my Alk at night and early morning, that keeps my PH elevated for me. I don't have algae growth in my main tank that my snails can't take care of.
If people want to run a refugium, great. It isn't my tank. I tried refugiums in the past and they did their job. My tanks didn't look great but things weren't dying.
Since I have gone to a bacteria driven system, my corals grow much faster and their colors are 10x better.
There are many ways to keep a healthy tank. Some of us choose to go a different route then 95% of this club. Matt has chosen to dump the refugium, good for him. Let him and this thread be.
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Posted By: Jeffs_little_ocean
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 10:40am
Ryan Thompson wrote:
Since I have gone to a bacteria driven system, my corals grow much faster and their colors are 10x better. |
Ryan would you be willing to explain what you mean by a bacterial driven system in detail of exactly what it means and what it entails as fas as equipment, dosing, etc? Maybe start a new thread since this one is really about a sump. And maybe include some of the threads from your other sites. I think one of the reasons that 95% of us do things one way, is because most of us dont understand some of the new and better ways. Personally I would be really interested in learning about them. Thanks
------------- Life is good....right?
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Posted By: CapnMorgan
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 10:50am
To some extent I agree with both of you. Yes refugiums work, are they mandatory? No. I think there are almost as many ways to have a successful reef aquarium as there are people who keep them. I also have to say my corals grow quite fast, and have great color even without dosing bacteria or carbon sources, but I have a large refugium that does it's job well, keeping nitrates in the range of .5-5ppm. Nothing to complain about there. It's sort of like the great skimmer debate. Can you do without one? If done right yes, will I ever do without one? Not on your life. Everyone has a different way of doing things, and as long as their animals are healthy, growing, and balance is maintained why should anyone say it's wrong to do it that way. After all if I wanted to be told 100 ways I run my tank wrong I'd be posting on Reef Central. 
------------- Steve http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40637&PID=356246" rel="nofollow - My Old 180G Mixed Reef Currently: 120G Wavefront Mixed 29G Seahorse & Softies Running ReefAngel Plus x2 435-8
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Posted By: Luckedout
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 11:14am
I think refugiums provide another great source of filtration and they require very little maintenance so why not have one if you have the space. Ryan's system sounds like it works well but requires a more active tank maintenance schedule. Really it depends on how much work you want to put into your tank every day. I personally like my system to be more self sufficient with less input for me and the refugium is one way that I get away with this.
I think the sump looks great! I can't wait to see the system up and running!
------------- -Ben
90g Mixed reef
www.body-balancechiropractic.com
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 6:23pm
CapnMorgan wrote:
After all if I wanted to be told 100 ways I run my tank wrong I'd be posting on Reef Central.  | Love it! 
Hey Ryan, I remember when you started in this hobby. "You've come a long way baby" 

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Posted By: Ahanix
Date Posted: October 28 2010 at 9:14pm
Wow, I can't believe how many responses came out of this
As a final decision, I have decided to do away with the refugium idea for the time being. I am going to try pushing my tank forward with other methods, and will post my results from these methods after my tank build is complete.
Thanks everyone for the helpful responses, I feel like there will be a never ending battle for fuge or no fuge, it's just like the mac vs pc debate, it's something that will never end, even though they will both get you to the same endpoint.
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Posted By: ejcatmul
Date Posted: November 24 2010 at 4:18am
Man there is sure a big difference in the structural components of your old DIY stand and your new purchased stand. Are those 1x2 supports? Hard to imagine that is enough support for a 40 Breeder? I have been thinking about getting a different stand, one that I could use a 20L or even a 29 gallon. I am gonna have to get in touch with you about plumbing and copy what you have done. I find it's much easier to find someone who has worked out all the kinks and then just replicate their design. Thanks for saving me countless hours of frustration... You should charge for this type of service...
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Posted By: ejcatmul
Date Posted: December 07 2010 at 5:30am
I just bought your exact stand but then black pine model from John. I hope it will be here this Friday. Do you think I could fit a 29 gallon as a sump in the stand? I know that I will be very limited in getting things in and out of the sump area. Just wanted your opinion on that stand. Should I just pick up a 20 L and sell my 29AGA.
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Posted By: Ahanix
Date Posted: December 07 2010 at 8:31pm
as far as space goes, I think the 20 L was just about perfect, enough room in the stand to move stuff around, if I put much more in there, I wouldn't have any room to put my electrical stuff safely in there.
Also, you will need to pull the middle brace out to drop the sump in there, theres only 4 small nails holding it in, so its easy to put back on after the sump is in place.
Also, I would suggest cutting some linoleum, or getting some tarp to put in the bottom to protect the bottom wood.
Another thing worth mentioning is that I placed a couple 2x4's under the center of the stand to make sure the bottom didn't have too much pressure on it, might have been unnecessary, but it certainly made me feel better
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