Well if anyone has seen this or has a suggestion I would love to know what may be happening in my tank. 

I bought 2 small peppermint shrimp and 2 false percs clowns the other day.  I acclamated them to my water temp and then poured a cup of my tank water in their bags, waited a half hour, then poured another cup in, waited another half hour.  Then I scooped them out with my hand and placed them in my tank.  When I put them in my tank they started to sway on their legs.  I didn't think much about it, but less than 24 hours later one is dead and eaten (clowns, hermits?) and the other is laying on it's side dying.     

Here are some of my tank specs:

30 Gallon Eclipse tall

245 GPH mechanical filter

dual 18 watt florecents

dual 165 ghp maxi jets

blue led night light

100 watt heater

Average temp 77 - 78

Specific Gravity 1.023

PH 8.0 - 8.2

Nitrates <5 mg/L

KH 110 mg/L

Any one have an idea as to why they might have croaked?

The clowns seem to be doing alright, but I don't want the same thing that killed the shrimp to kill the clowns.

Thanks,

John

Draper UT

I find that using a drip line over a period of a couple of hours works best for me.

I place the new critters in a large  bucket with a heater and small power head and then start a drip.  I drip probably about 4 - 6 cups an hour, and then once I am satisified that the water conditions are equal (usually about 3 - 4 times the original water volumn (if not more)). Then I quickly move the critters to there new home.

Rapid changes in specific gravity will do inverts in.  The drip line ensures that the specific gravity will change very slowly.

I hope that the other shrimp that you have makes it.  Good luck.

I really doubt they died because of your acclimation procedure (but it is possible).  How long were they in the bag before you added them to your aquarium?

Do you have any other inverts in your tank?

Do you test for ammonia or nitrite?

I tested for ammonia and nitrites about a week ago and they almost none existant.  There are hermit crabs and astrial snails in the tank.  The LFS's salinity was 1.021.  I was told that if I am going to acclamate them for longer than 30 minutes, to place them in a bucket with an airstone instead.  I will try the "drip" method mentioned an see what happens.

Thanks,

John 

I usually do an abbreviated acclimation on inverts. . But, so far I have not lost one like you describe. I float the bag, do a bit of water acclimation and off they go. I would say either they were not feeling well to begin with or they were MURDERED!

Do you have other shrimp/crabs/invert eaters in your tank? If not, I say Col. Mustard in the study with the candlestick.

Mark Peterson wrote: Dang, I've been doing it all wrong I check the temp in the bag with my finger compared to the tank. If it's lower in the tank, I float the bag for 10 minutes. Otherwise I just dump them in, water and all.

Yea, me too!

The only thing I do different is I will usually chuck the water if it came from a pet store.

Mark Peterson wrote: I can't imagine that a new hobbyist could catch a Peppermint Shrimp by hand. I have trouble doing that and I've been at this for 12 years. As soon as it was in your hand it would jump out and if you tried to keep it in you might smash it.

Mark, ever heard of a net?  Catch the shrimp with a small soft net.  Add to your aquarium.  Viola no jumping shrimp.  Oh, and just for the record I have caught many peppermints by hand without them jumping, you just have to make them feel comfortable and they will just lay there in your hand.  Maybe you don't have the gentle touch like I do.

Mark Peterson wrote: 3. Over time Urea (pee) builds up to the point that it turns to killer ammonia as soon as the container is opened to the air. Slow acclimatization is the worst thing to do in a situation like this. In cases like these especially, the best thing is to open the container and immediatly, if not sooner dump the thing in the water or if it's a fish don't dump the water into the tank if it came from a pet store, because of copper/formalin.

Good points Mark.   That is why I ask how long the shrimp had been in the bag. I am sure we have posted this info multiple times on the message board.  Keep in mind that urine can not only be convert into ammonia, but contains a large amount of ammonia to begin with.  Increasing the oxygen in a fish bag (via air stone, adding tank water, etc) with a high concentration of ammonia can be very deadly.

Here is how it works (Jon or others chemists correct me if I am wrong).

-Ammonia is less toxic the lower the pH and temp
-A fish is placed in a bag with normal Oxygen, CO2, and PH, and Temp and little or no ammonia.
-As the fish breaths the CO2 goes up, the Oxygen goes down, and in turn the PH begins to lower.  In the mean time the fish defecates in the bag and increases the ammonia levels.  Also the temp will often drop.  This would usually be bad, but works to our advantage because the ammonia is now less toxic due to the decrease in pH and temp.
-When you get home and open the bag the oxygen levels will slowly start to increase and the pH and temp will slowly start to rise.  If you add a airstone or start adding tank water this will quickly raise the pH and temp, in turn changing all the less toxic ammonia (NH4+) to highly toxic ammonia (NH3).  This can burn the gills of the fish or invert doing irreversible damage, or just out right poison them to death.

Obviously the longer the fish is in the bag the more problems you will have.  If you buy a fish or invert and take it right home, most of the stuff mentioned above doesn't have time to take place and therefore slowly acclimating your specimen is completely fine (although I still don't do it).

Here is a chart I found (not sure if it is correct).

But notice when the pH and/or the temp goes down the percent of NH3 or highly toxic ammonia goes down also. 

I'm not sure if any of that made sense, but there you go anyway.

One last point.

Pet store water has cooties.

How long do you think a fish would need to be in the bag for this to become problematic?  Which do you think would be more stressful; the sudden shock of being thrown into good water (sudden increase in pH) or a more gradual pH increase but with an increase in bad ammonia (NH4+ --> NH3)?  Just curious.

BTW, I'm not much of an acclimation person myself.  Sometime I float the bag for a few minutes, but most times I just grab the critter and drop it into the tank.  The bag water goes down the drain in almost all cases, unless the critter is a sponge in which case it stays submerged.  I'm not advocating my actions as I'm not sure that it's "best practice", it's just what I do.

jfinch wrote: How long do you think a fish would need to be in the bag for this to become problematic?  Which do you think would be more stressful; the sudden shock of being thrown into good water (sudden increase in pH) or a more gradual pH increase but with an increase in bad ammonia (NH4+ --> NH3)?  Just curious.

I think if the fish has been in the bag for an hour or more then I would just throw him in the tank (although I do that no matter what).

I guess it could be tested to see how fast the water in the bag changes, but it really depends on a lot of factors.  Initial pH, size of bag, amount of water, respiration rate of the fish, alkalinity of the water, etc.

And lastly, although pH shock can be lethal I think ammonia is much more lethal.

Mark Peterson wrote: I can't imagine that a new hobbyist could catch a Peppermint Shrimp by hand. I have trouble doing that and I've been at this for 12 years. As soon as it was in your hand it would jump out and if you tried to keep it in you might smash it. UNless there is something else, I'll bet they were goners before they got to the tank. That's why they could be caught and moved by hand.

Mark I have only been in the hobby for about 4 months now and I caught 2 peppermint shrimp by hand over a month ago. It was not any harder or easier then catching a fish by hand. My shrimp lived fine in the tank for about 12 hours before they ended up in the overflow. They have been living in the overflow now for over a month just fine.

I caught the two shrimp with my hand out of the bag.  They were a pain to scoop up as they kept cramming themselfs into the corner of the bag.  When they did that I would back off so I would not harm them trying to get them out of the corner.  When I finally nabbed them, they would just lay in my hand.

Anyways I thought I would give everyone an update.

So I come home from school at 10:30 PM and look at my tank.  To my amazement, the one shrimp is still alive but is still looks like he does not have control of his legs.  In fact his legs look like someone took a tiny billy club to them and broke them.  So here is the kicker; my 4 year old daughter points to a dark part in the rocks and says, "Daddy.  There is the other shrimp."  Sure enough, in the dark recesses of some of the live rock there is the other shrimp; heathly looking and swaying side to side.    Seems the remains I saw were the shell of the other shrimp that is not doing so well right now.  If I am correct, he molted.  ???  So then, I have another questoin.  Has anyone seen this before where a shrimp will molt and then loose funtionality of its legs?

BTW thank you for all your responses and help.

Thanks,

John

Draper UT

30 gal SW

It was more of he shed his legs he walks on.  Like they just fell right off.  So now he has nubs  and he trys to get around on the legs they scavange with.  When I fed the clowns this morining I watched a flake float near him and he jumped up and grabbed it.  That thing ate it so fast I wasn't sure where the flake went for a moment.

Anyone know if his back legs will grow out?  If so, how fast do they usually grow?

Thanks,

John

Mark Peterson wrote: Shrimp even jump out of nets for me.

Mark, you need to learn the art of holding your net vertical so it closes the opening.

Mark Peterson wrote: Jumping Shrimp. She pointed out how much other useful info was shared in the course of this thread, like Jamison simply tieing the tubing in a knot to create a drip. She's very right.

Yeah, but I failed to mention that I had a cleaner shrimp jump right out of my hands and fall 5 feet to the carpet that very day.... I was enjoying your ribbing so much, I didn't want to confess and draw the attention away from you Mark. P.S. the cleaner shrimp is fine.

Just an update:

The shrimp made it.  It spouted little nubbs and after a couple more days, he was walking around on tiny legs.

Thanks everyone for your comments and advice.  Sorry to mislead everyone.

John

Draper

30 gal Intert tank for now