ICH!
Printed From: Utah Reefs
Category: Help
Forum Name: EMERGENCY FORUM
Forum Description: If you have an Emergency post here and you should receive a quick reply.
URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53419
Printed Date: July 06 2026 at 1:56pm
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Topic: ICH!
Posted By: Kollypac
Subject: ICH!
Date Posted: December 31 2011 at 5:00pm
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I recently upgraded my tank to a 210g and everything was fine til I added a couple new tangs, then everyone got ich... Usually my 36w UV sterilizer keeps all the tangs in check but after a few days of trying to figure out what the problem was etc I realized that my sterilizer pooped out on me :( Does anyone have one that I could borrow or buy cheap before I lose my show-size tangs?? Thanks for any help!! Kolleen ------------- Kolleen Marchand Just Feedin the Addiction |
Replies:
Posted By: gbarker
Date Posted: December 31 2011 at 5:06pm
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I lost my whole tank cause of ich :( if no one can help, maybe create a emergency tank and put copper in it? I havent done it but i heard copper kills ich..
------------- [53] xGarrettxEdurancex |
Posted By: DLindquist
Date Posted: December 31 2011 at 8:09pm
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Ich can be a very difficult battle. One that I hope you win. I would offer the advice that a UV sterilizer, while helpful, will not 100% prevent or cure ich. Good luck and keep us posted. ------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 01 2012 at 9:32am
I know how it feels to have your dear pets sick and to feel the despair of not being able to help them immediately.  I don't know you or how much experience you have in the hobby, but I know  there is a chance that your fish may be saved.Have you heard of adding inexpensive Garlic Oil to their food as described in the http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244" rel="nofollow - Reefkeeping Tips below? Look for the tip " http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34014" rel="nofollow - Adding new fish, fish training and the Miracle of Garlic Oil ". This is not the only tip that will help. There are many things that can be done to make the aquarium healthier and more comfortable for the fish to reduce stress and make the fish better able to fight off parasites and disease. (This btw, is the main reason we founded the WMAS.) I am a total fish  . I have not used UV Sterilizers or O3 for my own tanks, except for brief periods and yet Ich is rare in my systems. If you would care to post a pic of your system and answer some questions about your setup, I'm positive this MB can make the suggestions that will help.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
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Posted By: Kollypac
Date Posted: January 01 2012 at 6:31pm
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Thanks so much to all of you for your help! A kind soul on here gave (yes, literally gave) me a UV sterilizer and although I know that is not the magic answer, it does seem to be helping everyone. I ended up moving my gold rim tang to my 28g nano where there is no one to pick on it and it is still not eating but seems a bit better tonight. I have been dosing garlic and everything else I can ththink of also :) ------------- Kolleen Marchand Just Feedin the Addiction |
Posted By: Kollypac
Date Posted: January 01 2012 at 6:40pm
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We also got a more powerful pumps when we upgraded tanks but apparently need larger pipes now and we are working on that as well to improve flow. I am new to the hobby and open to any suggestions that will better the setup :) I will try to upload some pics ASAP ------------- Kolleen Marchand Just Feedin the Addiction |
Posted By: DLindquist
Date Posted: January 01 2012 at 8:21pm
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Ich is such a troubeling problem to deal with. No magic cures and no guarantees. This Gold Rim Tang is prone to contracting Ich. It is highly sensitive to even minor levels of ammonia, as well as other poor water quality factors. Was this one of your newly added tangs? How big is this tang? Your 28G nano is a very short term step. Your best bet is insuring he's eating (garlic soaked food is helpful, but again, not a cure all), is not being picked on by others and has plenty of swimming room with good flow. You could try treating in a dedicated tank. I know Reef'd up (member on WMAS) has a ton of experience with treatments. A pm to them might prove helpful. Keep us posted. ------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Posted By: Kollypac
Date Posted: January 01 2012 at 9:45pm
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The gold rim was one of the newly added tangs and it is about 5 inches. My water quality is awesome actually :) ------------- Kolleen Marchand Just Feedin the Addiction |
Posted By: Akira
Date Posted: January 01 2012 at 10:08pm
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Not to hi-jack a thread but is it wise to put garlic oil on fish food before u feed ? And will it help prevent an outbreak ? |
Posted By: DLindquist
Date Posted: January 01 2012 at 10:13pm
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Wise? Yes. Prevent... No. But it certainly helps. ------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Posted By: Akira
Date Posted: January 01 2012 at 10:16pm
Thanks  . will u be there thurs? |
Posted By: DLindquist
Date Posted: January 01 2012 at 10:25pm
If you are asking me, I am shooting to make the meeting. ------------- A government strong enough to give you everything you want, is powerful enough to take everything you have. |
Akira wrote:Posted By: Akira
Date Posted: January 01 2012 at 10:34pm
| Bring me something cool lol |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: January 01 2012 at 10:45pm
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Sorry everyone. I hate posting long replies from my phone. Feel free to pm and I'll give you my number. Anyway, marine ich is one of those topics that gets my blood boiling. There are a few treatments absolutely proven to work if done correctly. Garlic isn't proven to work, and neither are the other miracle cures. I prefer hyposalinity as it is very very safe for fish, and it actually helps the fish's health in general. Copper can mess with a tang's stomach, so I avoid it for tangs. Anyway, if you treat all your fish, you won't ever have an outbreak again, which saves a lot of headaches. If you Google "rescue purple tang" you should find some longer posts about my worst experience with ich. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 02 2012 at 11:24am
Garlic Oil is not a cure. The best i can tell, it seems to inhibit the parasite. I have found how to make Garlic Oil work 95% of the time. There are different ways to do things in this hobby, and when you have been at this as long as I have, you find a way to make things work. I'm also a lazy reefer and the King of Cheap. I find the ways that require the least effort, time and money. I believe in setting things up to assist Nature in taking care of itself. That's why I asked for a pic and a description of your system. How is the tank set up  What is the filtration What and how much is being fed What are the water parameters How are water changes done It's nice to say that the tank water is "awesome", but less experienced hobbyists cannot see things that more experienced hobbyists can see. For this reason it's good to share with us the test results, the actual numbers. The four most important parameters are: - Temperature - Salinity - Alkalinity (Alk) - Calcium (Ca). That's not to say that Nitrogen levels aren't important, but these days hobbyists mostly set up their tanks with LS and LR, so it's rare that Ammonia, Nitrite or Nitrate are outside of the acceptable ranges. Sometimes we can suggest ways to improve pH in a hobbyist's tank. pH swings were the entire cause of Ich in one of my tanks many years ago. When reading the tip about adding fish and using Garlic Oil, several points should have stood out. I'll give a synopsis here: 1. The aquarium environment should be prepared ahead of time. The setup of the tank can make a particular animal feel comfortable and happy or it can cause discomfort and stress. Each general type of fish and invert/coral is different. For instance, one of the most striking differences is the type of environments for carnivores versus herbivores. Tangs do wonderfully when there is plenty of naturally growing algae to graze on. Aquascaping and water flow also make a big difference. 2. Garlic Oil works differently in different systems. I've had tons of experience with it, enough to know that different Garlic Oil products must be tried. If one Garlic Oil does not make a big difference in just a few days, put it on the shelf and try another. This is the part about Garlic Oil success that most hobbyists miss. Each product is made and formulated a little differently. In case you haven't noticed, doctors prescribe medicines the same way, telling you to come back if what they have given you is not working. I have found that a 4$ bottle of stinky Garlic Oil gel capsules works in most cases. There are about three different manufacturers that supply the industry. Those three products are found on health food and grocery store shelves with 6 or 7 different brand labels. It's easy to switch and try another Garlic Oil when Garlic Oil is that inexpensive. I've never had to bother with the $20 stuff from the LFS because the cheap stuff works. 3. Akira asked a good question. Again, it's important to read the Tip. Rading through the different threads about how to add new fish and treat Ich is the best way to gain the information to make the best decision for your tank. Yes, Garlic Oil is best administered in the food. Use 1-2 drops per frozen cube, allowed to thaw without added water, with a few minutes to marinate and then dropped in the tank in small clumps a little at a time, to be sure the fish are eating it immediately before the oil can release and float to the surface. Use Garlic Oil once/day for the first 5 days that a new fish is in the system. After that, use it once every 2-3 weeks as a preventive. 4. The type of food also makes a difference. Dry processed foods are crap. You wouldn't last long if all you ate was bread and chips. Why should we feed that crap to our fish? Most of us keep both herbivores and carnivores so the food needs to be a combination of fresh algae and fresh meaty foods. Fresh frozen foods are most convenient here. The two best frozen foods I know of are Rod's Food and Emerald Entree. Those each contain a combo of algae and meaty pieces. For herbivores, fresh dark green lettuce and Nori are also needed if they have eaten all the macroalgae that was prepared (allowed to grow) for them in their new tank. This ended up being very long. Sorry. Hope it helps. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Kollypac
Date Posted: January 02 2012 at 11:55am
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Thanks everyone! Just for an update: the gold rim died sometime in the night last night :( The other fish in my 210g seem to be doing better and eating well etc :) I have been dosing garlic xtreme on the food (mostly on Nori, and some on Dianichi reef pellets that my fish LOVE). I will gladly venture into other brands as I cannot stand the smell of the Xtreme ;) I believe that my tank woes were due to several factors (correct me if I am mistaken):
-major tank change a month ago
-decreased flow due to plumbing oversights (being fixed today) that are beyond my female brain's comprehension ;)
-Addition of new fish
-UV sterilizer pooped out without me realizing it.
My water parameters as of 4 days ago:
-PH 8.2
-Salinitiy 1.024
-Alk: 10.2
-Calcium: 420
-Mag: can't remember but it was good
Temp: 76-78
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 15 (I have since done a water change and have not checked it)
The setup:
-210g tank with two overflows
-~40g sump with sock filtration--->36w UV sterilizer (now working)--->Protein skimmer (not sure on size/details)----> chaeto/chemi-pure----->then spills over to sponge filtration----->pump
-Reeflo Snapper/Dart hybrid 3600GPH
-5 koralias on wavemaker controller
That's all I can think of for details. I cannot upload pics right now but I did upload some to the tank show off forum a couple weeks back. No pics of the sump area.
------------- Kolleen Marchand Just Feedin the Addiction |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 02 2012 at 12:03pm
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Sorry about the Gold Rim Tang. Sounds like you are on the right track regarding the reasons for the Ich outbreak. Garlic Oil smells. Can't get away from that. I do not recommend the orderless kind. If the pics are already uploaded here, it's just a matter of selecting them for this post from the list of uploaded pics. I'll go look for them in your thread. <EDIT> This is the thread http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53019" rel="nofollow - http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53019 Okay, what I see is good aquascaping, nice coral, some nice fish and in general a nice looking tank. As far as set up, I would be interested to see the Sump. Is it also a Refugium? I could offer some suggestions for improvement, if you care to hear them. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: January 02 2012 at 7:43pm
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A friend of mine and I wrote the following back at our last club in Ohio (CincyReef.com). I'm reposting only because it's great info, and is much more in line with current up-to-date info. This first post is from Trichrome: You have essentially two main choices here: (1) maintain optimal tank conditions and feed very healthy food frequently (such as vitamin enriched food or garlic to improve the fishs' immune system); or (2) remove the fish and treat them for crypt. With respect to option 1, you will NEVER rid your fish of the parasite, and the best you can hope to achieve is a balance where the fish, although infected with the parasite, are able to cope with it. If you elect option 1, you can hope to achieve a balance with occasional spotting and abnormal behavior, including flashing, darting, scratching, reduced activity, and reduced feeding. After dealing with the crypt parasite multiple times and observing it in many other systems, fish always show some signs of being infected. I almost always observe a noticeable increase in activity and feeding once fish are treated and the parasite is no longer affecting the fish. Fish can live in a controlled crypt infestation for many years. Option 2 has three accepted treatment approaches -- all of which require the removal of the fish from the display and treatment in a hospital tank when one's display is a reef. There is NO treatment which you can apply in a reef tank which will eliminate the parasite. All treatments which can be applied to a reef tank at best will reduce the parasites' numbers (often only temporarily), but they will not eliminate the crypt parasite. Only Hypo, copper ( http://premiumaquatics.com/aquatic-supplies/SEA-564.html" rel="nofollow - - http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1930781 I recommend reading the whole thread for more information. Here is a great link to help you understand the life cycle of ich: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1931912" rel="nofollow - - cupramine is in addition to its ease of application is it allows for a greatly reduced quarantine period in two ways. First, treatment for crypt and a variety of other protozoans is only a total of 3 weeks at full treatment strength. Second, it can be treated together with http://premiumaquatics.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=HIK-AHK73251&Category_Code=" rel="nofollow - |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: January 02 2012 at 7:45pm
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Here's my response to Trichrome's post: Thanks for posting this. I'm on the other side of the fence and prefer hyposalinity, so I'll post the pros to it. This is based on personal experience in QT'ing fish and tons of research.Unfortunately, Cryptocaryon irritans (marine ich) can often present itself in the gills before spreading to the rest of the body...which by then, is probably too late for the fish. Brooklynella and Amyloodinium (marine velvet) can also start in the gills, making correct diagnosis nearly impossible without a gill biopsy. This is why a QT procedure is SO important. If your fish is swimming around your main tank, you likely won't notice a bit of gasping...and by the time you do, it'll be too late or will stress the fish literally to death trying to catch it. Treating "just in case" cannot be stressed enough. Please always have a QT tank on hand (no matter how simple) with an airstone, HOB filter or sponge filter, heater, thermometer, and some PVC for hiding places. I also keep the following on hand: Formalin (formaldehyde), Furan-2, Erithromycin, Chelated copper, PraziPro, Methylene Blue, Selcon, and VitaChem. The only thing worse than having a sick fish is having an owner running around trying to find meds at 3am. Although copper-derivative treatments will ward off a variety of diseases, I prefer to go the more "natural" route as copper has been shown to have some issues in reproductive health of various fish, is difficult to test, and provides a fairly hostile environment to the fish. I only use it when I feel it's necessary to the health of the fish. NOTE: Like Eric said, copper is an excellent treatment, just one I prefer to avoid where possible. I prefer to use hyposalinity. With a refractometer, it's quite simple to maintain. Since approximately 80% of a fish's waste is ammonia, water changes are essential in QT regardless of hypo or copper or whatever treatment you use. Water changes with hypo just mean changing the water with a lower salinity water than usual. Water changes with copper means re-testing the copper and re-dosing as necessary. That's just not fun to me. A big myth is that wrasses can't get marine ich due to their mucus coating and burying at night, but they're still susceptible. The great thing about hyposalinity is that you can have a shallow sandbed and rock for wrasses to hide/burrow in and still treat them. A shallow sandbed and rock will help other fish feel more comfortable than the sterile environment copper requires (glass, rock, and sand will absorb copper). Here's my biggest plus for hyposalinity: baby brine shrimp will survive several days in it...extremely important for fish that require live food. Hyposalinity also decreases the amount of stress on a fish. The natural internal salinity of a fish is about 11-12 ppt, so as the external salinity of a tank increases, the more the fish has to work (many reef tanks are around 35 ppt) for osmoregulation. Hyposalinity (at 14 ppt) allows the fish to work less and recover from shipping, stress of being caught/kept in tanks, and recover from wounds. Speaking of wounds, antibiotics generally work better in lower-salinity water. I currently have 3 fish in QT - 2 are in hyposalinity with Furan-2 (treating for a bacteria/fungus right now), and the other one is in a hyposalinity/copper/formalin/and erithromycin treatment (he was in really really bad shape...recovering nicely now...I don't recommend this treatment regiment unless it's a last-ditch method). My point is that you need to do what you feel comfortable with...and what the fish actually needs. There isn't a single "cure-all", so become familiar with various medications. Certain medications work together, others don't. If you do use copper, please consider the use of an antibiotic (like erithromycin) as copper can exacerbate injuries, especially as the encysted ich fall off the fish and leave open wounds. Here's another great link on Crypt: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/6/fish" rel="nofollow - |
Posted By: Jeffatpm
Date Posted: January 03 2012 at 9:41am
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For me with my tangs I regularly take a kitchen garlic ricer and put in a few cloves every other week or if i see some ich on them. It's helped to keep my powder blue healthy and powder brown while I had him. Seems like this worked the best over any other solution - at least for me and my tank. ------------- 210 Reef with loads of LEDS Large Fishey Room Located Near Jordan Landing in West Jordan. |