Treating ich and keeping coral alive without fish
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Topic: Treating ich and keeping coral alive without fish
Posted By: brandonp
Subject: Treating ich and keeping coral alive without fish
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 10:56am
| Hey everyone, so I've decided it's time to pull all my fish out of my aquarium and transfer them to a quarantine/hospital tank. My plan is to medicate all fish (except my mandarin) in the quarantine tank with cupamine for 2 weeks, followed by another month and a half in the tank with saltwater and regular changes. During this process of trying to rid my tank of ich, how do I keep a bio load going enough to sustain coral and live rock? Would feeding the coral a couple times a week and feeding my shrimp and crabs be enough? Also will ich make more of an effort to attack my mandarin as he will be the only fish in there? I know mandarins are not as prone to ich but don't know if my plans change the likelihood of infection. I can't pull him out or he'll starve from not eating pods. Advice is greatly needed to ensure fish and coral are kept safe during this process. Thanks to all who can offer advice. |
Replies:
Posted By: phys
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 12:04pm
| 2 weeks isn't enough. Life cycle of marine ich is much longer. The coral and live rock will be fine if you're not keeping fish in there. ANY fish left in the tank will be the continual host for ich, remove it or you'll be wasting you time. You can do what Nikki and others have done and use a tank transfer method and exchange tanks every few days, completely clean one and set it up again for the next transfer. You won't use copper. If you buy some pods in a bottle, you can coninuously feed the pods in those tanks for the Mandarin. |
Posted By: Lyscer
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 1:00pm
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First off, I appoligize for this long post. I am only posting my experience and what I have been reading/doing the past 3 months. I am actually going through this same process. I had some parasite knock out half my fish so I moved them into a QT tank. You have to pull ALL of your fish out because as long as there is a fish host the parasite will stay alive. You should let your tank be fallow (fishless) for 75 days. This is enough time to starve off all parasites and any cysts that may have been there. From various people that I have spoken with depending on if you do a TTM (Tank Transfer Method) or treat with copper (don't treat your mandarin with it) .. Tank transfer seems to be the best option as it doesn't suppress appetite in your fish but it does use up quite a bit of salt water. But it really depends on how many fish you are treating and your preference. If you treat with copper it has been recommended to treat for a longer duration than the bottle states because it has been known to come back in the 14 day period from posts I have read. Lastly, no matter which method you use, make sure to keep your QT and ALL supplies separate (at least 10 feet) away from each other because there have been studies done that show that parasites can infect water that is close to each other. As for your mandarin question I have been trying to figure out how to QT pipefish due to lack of food and if you build a continuous feeder you should be able to feed your mandarin without any problems. Check out this post on it. http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/diy-target-feeder-mandarinfish-pipefish-2804/ I spoke with the gentleman who wrote that and he said he has performed QT on them using that without any problems. CORALS; I noticed that all of my sps were bleaching out due to lack of feedings so after a TON of research I found that I was starving them even though I was ghost feeding the tank with LRS Reef Frenzy. I completely stopped skimming and completely stopped running A/C (except when I notice things looking strange). I then started dosing Nitrate in my tank to keep it around 1-2ppm using some stuff from home depot I can send you links to where I got all my information if you are interested in this). Since doing this my polyp extension has been awesome and my corals have colored back up and are growing well. I also cut back on my photoperiod because with lack of nutrients in the water the extra time for photosynthesis was starving them out because they didn't have anything to eat really. I'm sure that others have other experiences or may have experiences that contradict mine but my tank has been fallow 90 days total now and everything still looks good. I decided to add a bunch of new corals at my 70 day mark and had no idea if they brought new diseases so I decided to start my fallow clock over just to be safe. Thought I should throw that in there in case you were wondering why I would be going on 90 days. I am happy to answer any questions you may have.
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Posted By: Krazie4Acans
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 1:32pm
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You will need to remove the Mandarin from the tank as well or the effort of the treatment will fail. The Mandarin will be the host for the Ich even if it shows no signs of having the disease. There must be NO fish in the tank in order for the treatment to work. As Phys said you can buy bottled pods and rotifers to feed the Mandarin during this time. You may also be able to get him to start accepting some small frozen foods as part of the process as well. ------------- My ocean. 90g (yup, won it!), 40g, 28g, & 10g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=63568&title=krazies-nano-paradise" rel="nofollow - Tank Thread: |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 1:55pm
Fascinating to read the things Lyscer did to help coral during fish absence. It made perfect sense to me.  I don't mean to hijack the thread or to second guess a decision, but I went through all three pages of brandonp posts to see if there was anything mentioned previously regarding Ich. I could find nothing about it. From my long experience on this forum, trying to share my experiences of the last 25 years, to help educate hobbyists, I would like to ask if you know how much trouble it is to do what you are thinking of doing? Also, there are various ways to help keep fish healthy and parasite free - all of which are much simpler and less hassle than treating/quarantining. What have you tried to this point and how has it worked? No matter if you'd rather not discuss it here, just PM/text/call me or don't. Your choice.  Aloha, Mark  808-345-1049
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: brandonp
Date Posted: November 10 2015 at 3:28pm
| I appreciate all the advice from everyone. It looks like I have much to consider. I pm'd lyscer and spoke with Mark as well. I have to get this nipped in the butt regardless of how I do it. Thanks again everyone |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 3:18pm
 Not to put too fine a point on it, but I believe the term is "nipped in the bud". It's a term taken from horticulture, saying that the "bud" must be nipped before it grows into something unwanted and harder to handle.Aloha, Mark P.S. Do we get to see pics of the tank to follow up with suggestions about how a healthy set up, as close to nature as possible can decrease fish stress, increase comfort so they are less inclined to get an Ich outbreak?
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: brandonp
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 3:24pm
| I got home later than expected last night. I'll try and either post a picture or email ya mark with what the Dt looks like. Thanks for yours and everyone's help. |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 4:53pm
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I didn't read above, just your post. This sounds bad. First, your corals are fine. Your don't have to feed them during this time frame. Why pull out the fish? If you leave the mandarin in you can't really rid the tank of parasites. Also you'd be looking at several weeks of quarantine with the other fish. I'm not feeling good about this. Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: brandonp
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 5:09pm
| Why is that Adam? I'm willing to hear others views as I am seeking help. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 6:31pm
Here is the pic I received along with some info from brandonp. Thanks for being a good sport and letting us make suggestions and letting others learn from it. I hope that we can learn from each other. My thoughts are below. I hope this creates good dialogue. Awesome purple coralline algae all over every rock. Good aquascaping with plenty of hiding places.  I believe it could perhaps do just fine with less visible equipment. How about a $3 stick-on thermometer on an outside corner in place of the glass thermometer? A net (and other stuff) sitting on top of the tank has got to be frightening to a fish. They are genetically conditioned to "fright and flight" from things above them; Birds, sharks, etc.. The fish which have been troubled with Ich are: Christmas Wrasse, constantly scratching Royal Gramma, also pretty bad infestation Yellow Tang, cleared up? Firefish Goby 2 clowns Lawnmower Blenny There is a Cleaner Shrimp, but does it clean? With all those fish and associated feedings, my thought is that it might not be hungry enough to clean. Tank would need to be fed well to keep fish from exhibiting even more serious territorial aggression. Unaffected by Ich are: Green Clown Goby Hectors Goby Mandarin That's a high number of fish for a 55 gal. Brandonp tells me that some don't dare to venture all over the tank. Definitely territorial aggression causing stress. Don't know how long each has been in the tank or if other fish have died and been replaced or not. If I heard correctly, I believe Brandon has used only one garlic product. He makes up a weeks worth and refreezes it. I don't know about you, but I would not want to eat meat that had been thawed and refrozen. I also don't trust Garlic Oil that has been frozen. My brother did it and it caused problems. Something to think about. Aloha, Mark ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: brandonp
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 7:23pm
| Thanks for posting the photo mark. The clowns in the past showed aggression towards the gramma when first introduced. They now keep to themselves. Thought it died then showed up alive 4 days later and has had a healthy appetite since then. The yellow tang shows no aggression. I rearranged the tank a few weeks ago when I pulled a tail spot blenny out who was constantly harassing my mower blenny. Now the victim (mower blenny) has become the offender as he will occasionally chase my green clown goby. The mower is a somewhat recent addition. The clown goby was in the tank when I bought the system and mostly hangs out on the blue trumpet coal . I speculate that when I really screwed up my water chemistry is when ich hit hard. I made a rookie move and dosed kalk way to quickly (trying to get calcium up instead using it to maintain calcium) and also somehow had too high of salinity (not sure how I got salinity that high other than maybe a hydrometer user error). Needle was pegged at the top when checking days later. I know I didn't add saltwater for top off as I only mix before a water change. Lost a bop frag but other than that after a month all coral was happy again. No fish died initially from this but lost a couple fish a couple weeks after the coral recovered. It's all speculation on my part that this was what kicked the ich infestation off, but I obviously need to make changes to fix my goof up. Mark is correct that the cleaner shri mp does not clean. I also have a fire shrimp who cleans the fire fish as they hang in the rocks mostly together. Even when I had a cleaner wrasse and a cleaner gobyn other fish in my tank didn't usually want to be cleaned. The cleaner shrimp tries but fish don't seem to accept it. I will be doing garlic in the food fresh versus freezing it. That makes sense. The stuff above that I had laying on the top of the tank have been moved and won't be layed there anymore since marks helpful reply. There actually used to be more fish (13 total) but now I have 10 if I'm counting right. I have been feeding fairly heavy to try and keep fish happy. Lots of helpful advice from Mark as well as all others. I also spoke on the phone with lyscer as well and he was also extremely helpful and sent links to help me. Thanks again everyone and I hope this topic helps others as well who are also newer to the hobby. |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 8:00pm
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That tank looks great, I'd probably do nothing. Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: DMower
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 8:02pm
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I've done it both ways. Leave it alone and drastic treatment measures. I would leave it alone. ------------- 150 gal reef with 50 gal sump. Reef Octopus DCS-200 Skimmer. AI Sol Blues. |
Posted By: brandonp
Date Posted: November 11 2015 at 8:34pm
| Thanks for the compliment Adam. I definitely am getting tired of chasing my tail with ich. I think I will move the clowns over towards the right side more by moving the rock with the anemone. I'm sure the gramma remembers how mean they were. He ventures by them on occasion now though. I am still considering quarantine to kill off ich even though it takes a couple months. If I do this it means any new coral gets dipped before being added and thorough quarantine for fish if I ever add any more down the road. I'm prepared for the long haul though if I do. I also will be hatching brine shrimp for the madarin and giving him the baby brine daily if I do go through with this and he would probably be by himself in a separate tank so he can actually eat the brine before others get to it first. He definitely would get the tank transfer method as not kill him with cupramine. One question though, if I quarantine are synthetic biological filers like bio pellets agitated beneficial or pointless? Obviously the qt will not have cycled. Water changes would be frequent though with daily testing of everything regardless (copper as well if I treat the other fish with it. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: November 17 2015 at 7:45am
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I woke up this morning thinking about this situation. I realized that there were a few more items I should add that cause fish to stress and get Ich infestation. #9. Nighttime pH too low. Keeping pH at a good level at night is done by increasing water flow and turbulence at the surface and by the use of a well lighted RDP Refugium. In my story about the RDP Refugium there was a Damsel (Damsels are very resilient to Ich) that always showed the Ich parasite in the early morning but the Ich retracted into the fish's body and disappeared later in the day. For more on this, see the article, RDP for Nighttime Ph Control, in one of the club's old Sea Star Newsletters: http://www.utahreefs.com/SeaStar/wmasSeaStar02Feb.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.utahreefs.com/SeaStar/wmasSeaStar02Feb.pdf #10. Children slapping the glass. I had to teach my kids when they were young that slapping/tapping the glass sounded like a big explosion in the fishes ears. That loud explosion hurts the fishies ears. You don't want that do you? True, they don't have real ears, but just the same, they do feel compression waves through a special part of their body. We have probably all seen how fish scatter for cover or even run into the glass when there is a loud, frightening noise. Kids can be taught to enjoy watching and touching but not to bang on the glass. (Fingerprints on the glass come off easily )Aloha, Mark P.S. It was alluded to earlier in this thread but deserves a better explanation. Removing or "training" an aggressive fish helps relieve stress on the entire group. Of course, removing the aggressive fish can also enable a new "Alpha" to emerge but that's where "fish training" comes in. See this thread on how to train fish: http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34014" rel="nofollow - http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34014 Some may laugh, but fish training really works. Fish are like dogs. Their behavior can be conditioned. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: brandonp
Date Posted: November 17 2015 at 9:36am
| That's all really good information and I like the links on dealing with bullies. I've been there for sure. Thanks Mark. BTW I ended up going ahead with pulling all of my fish and built a couple of mandarin feeding stations (one for each tank transfer aquarium) and am switching the fish from tank to tank with new water every 3 days. I also rearranged my rocks and coral in my dt as I noticed certain fish liked certain corals to try and give them their own area when they return to the dt in a couple months. With that being said I have monitored my levels. I noticed that my cheap api kit was really only showing that I have ammonia (not that that is something to shrug off). The amount of ammonia was around .12ppm total. With that being said I have been dosing with Seachem Prime every 2 days as that is how long the prime is effective in the water according to Seachem. This converts any free ammonia in the water to a non harmful ammonia which still shows up on most test kits. As many have mentioned though this is quite the process. If Seachem is correct I should be fine with my qt for the next couple months. The one thing I was cautioned about was making sure the total ammonia which shows up on the test kit stays below 1ppm. If anyone has any other dealings with prime that are contrary to what I was told please speak up. Thanks everyone and thanks again Mark. Hope my fish will be happier when all said and done. |
Posted By: phys
Date Posted: November 17 2015 at 1:18pm
| Although not extremely precise, seachem sells an ammonia tracker that stays in the tank and changes color if it gets to harmful levels. Simple to just look at twice a day. Also, for future reference, since you're going through all this trouble, be sure to qt every fish you get before adding them. So you'll not have to do thus again |
Posted By: brandonp
Date Posted: November 17 2015 at 1:38pm
| I plan to quarantine every animal and not just fish in the future as well as ich could enter from other water sources as well. I'll have to look into the ammonia tracker. Hopefully they are cheap |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: November 17 2015 at 8:22pm
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I just have to say something. Most of us old timer hobbyists have seen these kinds of things tried by newer hobbyists and we have seen them fail. That's why we do what we do with our tanks and why we advise other hobbyists as we do. Collectively, we have seen thousands of hobbyist tanks and know the difference between healthy and unhealthy. There is knowledge and wisdom here in this fish club. After our many beginning suggestions for reducing fish stress, improving tank health as well as advising the proper procedures for use of Garlic Oil, including following the written instructions and heeding the written caution not to stop with just one form of Garlic Oil, it is unfortunate that the suggestions were not given time to work before the new hobbyist embarked on an immensely more difficult task. The horrendous task not only of eliminating the existing Ich parasites, but the never ending task of avoiding the future accidental introduction of just one single Ich parasite. (Because one single Cryptocaryon irritans parasite is all it takes.  ) I'm not sure, but perhaps even our beloved local hobbyist that developed the procedures would attest to their difficulty and eventual failure.As far as I know, groups of fish in the wild do not succumb to Ich infestation. As in all aspects of life there is sickness and opposition. It's by getting sick and surviving that living things build strength. No, Ich is not a virus or bacteria to which a fish can develop immunity. It is a tiny pest that a stronger, healthier, happier fish can more easily resist. Ways were suggested to help these fish become stronger, healthier and happier to keep the parasites from becoming a lethal infestation. If, when those lucky fish that survive 2 months of quarantine in polluted water are returned to an aquarium where our many suggestions are actually incorporated, the hobbyist may never know whether those easy improvements were the simple solution. Anyway, best of luck. I hope it works and with all due respect, I hope you never have to hear us say,"We told you so." Aloha, Mark
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: phys
Date Posted: November 17 2015 at 10:34pm
| Mark, it is my thinking that the reason you don't see ich in the ocean is because it's huge. It probably survives for short periods of time on fish and when it drops off, it may never again encounter that fish let alone another. Compare that with our enclosed sytems. One fish may come across several individual parasites in our tanks which then multiply more and snowballs into a dead fish. If we had million gallon systems, we may have it but it doesn't get out of hand due to the size and rarity of contact. In many ways, you can have an ideal system and happy fish and they still can succumb to ich. Take precautions before introducing fish is by far the best thing to do. But rarely are any newbs told of all the work they might have to do. Everyone will have issues in one way or another. So with that, we can all say we told you so to everyone. But we can easily help each other out so we don't have to. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: November 18 2015 at 4:53am
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I agree. We have each created a unique environment, a mini ecosystem which in no way replicates the ocean. Some would say it does not even come close. Yes, even in the healthiest of aquarium systems we have observed one or two Ich parasites occasionally show up on a fish. Sometimes we have watched helplessly as a fish succumbs to an infestation. Usually it's only one or two fish that die and then everything returns to normal. It is painful to watch our pet fishies die, knowing that we have done everything we know to do for them. I believe we all hope that brandonp has success. Aloha, Mark ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: November 18 2015 at 6:58pm
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Oh holy moly...this again. Why not applaud someone for actually doing things the hard way that has a scientifically proven method? I'm on I think 7 years without a fish loss in my display due to ich or velvet. I've lost one to some sort of anorexia (couldn't find a parasite or other evidence of disease). Lost three wrasses due to territorial disputes. All other fish were lost before the display in QT since they came in very sick (many were rescues), and I couldn't save them all. How is that a bad path? I was once a newbie too...yet I took the hard road with success. Mandarins are fine going through QT, especially the tank transfer method...as long as they were well fed initially. I hatched brine shrimp, and interestingly enough, I got one trained onto pellets and frozen food while in QT. Bottom line, I applaud the OP. I'm not on here often anymore due to a move, but if anyone wants to discuss further I can be reached at reefdup at gmail.com or 8five0-2two6-336six. P.S. all of my QT stuff is for sale if anyone is interested. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: brandonp
Date Posted: November 18 2015 at 8:14pm
| I'm sorry if this topic caused any contention amongst people on the forum. I've been hatching brine every day and a half, then restarting another batch for the mandarin. Regardless of methods and tips mentioned I did learn from everyone's post. Many things Mark mentioned will be implemented to help with overall health of my fish. I just felt there was so much ich in my system that i wanted to go extreme. Hopefully I don't lose any fish doing the tank swap method or more importantly after for the remainder of the couple months in qt.I've talked with lyscer who is about done with the 2 months of quarantine. I appreciate everyone's help. I feel like I have a handle on it for the most part. My only topic of concern at this point is if the tank swap transfer really needs to be done in the morning? I read that morning is best due to when the parasites typically drop off. Maybe we can have people chime in on tips or advice who have done the tank transfer method as well as the 2 month qt (which I feel is when the fish are most at risk due to less than ideal water conditions. Hopefully others who may be considering the same thing can learn as well. Thanks again everyone for the input. |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: November 18 2015 at 10:04pm
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My comments were not directed to you, brandonp. Mark and I have vastly differing views, but all debate is not meant with disrespect toward each other. Sorry if it came across as toward you or inflamatory to Mark. All of my fish go through QT, and depending on the type of fish and condition, they often get the tank transfer method. In conjunction with the TTM, I recommend using Furan-2 (preferrable) or Erythromycin to help prevent infection when the ich fall off. I also do freshwater dips between tank swaps for velvet, and the last few days of the TTM, all fish get PraziPro to help with internal parasites. The TTM should definitely be done in the morning due to parasites cycle. Additionally, I highly recommend against the use of substrate as ich hates glass. The reproduction of ich actually was shown to slow down in cooler temperatures and in glass tanks. Plus, infections usually slow in cooler temps. I've done about every treatmemt at the non-vet level, and IME the TTM is the most safe. QT can be tricky as discussed due to ammonia, so just stick with an ammonia detoxifier. I personally use Amquel. Keep in mind how bad aggression can be in smaller tanks with lots of fish and few hiding places. I split mated pairs up during QT as otherwise they try to kill each other. They quickly repair after QT. Good luck ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: ReefdUp
Date Posted: November 18 2015 at 10:07pm
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Oh...keep temps within 3 degrees of each other, s.g. within 0.002, and pH dead on. PH variations with TTM seem to be the most devestating. Fish can go 3 degrees warmer pretty easily, but they have a difficult time adjusting to 3 degrees cooler suddenly. ------------- www.reefdup.com Diving since 2009, reefkeeping since 2007, & fishkeeping since 1987 200g, 75g, & 15g Systems PADI Advanced Open Water |
Posted By: brandonp
Date Posted: November 18 2015 at 11:28pm
| I didn't feel that your response was directed at me. I just wanted to apologize if this topic caused anyone to get offended. I value everyone's advice. The one thing I noticed with this hobby in my short time is that many people will judge others methods, and I just want to keep things light and non confrontational. Anyway I appreciate you helping me and probably others out. It sounds like I've been doing the transfer method at the wrong time of day. I've been doing it after work in the evenings. So do you think this transfer I did last night probably needs to be repeated? It was the 2nd transfer (1st was out of my dt) Also with that being said, do I need to transfer right after the lights come on? I currently have no substrate as you mentioned but do have some washed gravel inside my mandarin feeder to weigh it down. So maybe I should ditch the feeder as the baby brine fit through the nylon cover to easily anyway. I'll have to get prazipro just hope it's OK for my mandarin. Also are the medications for preventing infection something you can get at most lfs or grocery stores? Lastly how long do you do the fresh water dip for velvet? Thanks again Nikki and everyone else as well. And sorry for the poorly organized run on paragraph. |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: November 19 2015 at 9:03am
had kind of finished all I had to say (kind of said too much  )didn't read the last posts I'm really glad that our "beloved local hobbyist", the quarantine expert has chimed in. I am happy to leave it too her to direct the remainder of this discussion. hope it all goes well with your fish Aloha, Mark ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: brandonp
Date Posted: November 19 2015 at 10:06am
| I just want everyone to know that I'm thankful for all of their help. I will be implementing advice you gave me mark as well for the overall health of my fish. Great advice from everyone. Thanks again |