Moorish Idols
Printed From: Utah Reefs
Category: Specialized Discussion
Forum Name: Fish
Forum Description: This is the place to ask questions about fish.
URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28114
Printed Date: September 04 2025 at 10:01pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Moorish Idols
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Subject: Moorish Idols
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 1:39pm
|
Some recent topics on this forum discussing the husbandry requirements of Moorish Idols. I thought I'd put together some thoughts on this. Hopefully this will bring out some items that many of you will find educational.
Moorish Idols
There is only one species in the genus Zanclus and that is the Moorish Idol (Zanclus cornutus). It is often misspelled Morish Idol missing one O. These fish are very closely related to the tangs (Acanthuridae). And I mean very closely related. They behave much like tangs and even fight with their tails... even though they are lacking a spine on the caudal peduncle. In general, thinking of their husbandry as that of a Acanthurid is fitting.
These fish are nearly always found in the wild swimming as pairs. From an aquarium point of view and from an aquaculture point of view this is awesome. We can collect them as pairs of fish! Once in a while a smaller third fish is there, and in some instances they are found in groups (usually attacking food sources and overpowering other fishes). As fragile and delicate as they appear, they are actually known for being bullys and have quite the strong temper/attitude.
Collection
These fishes are not imported in high numbers. In fact, most wholesalers only have a handful of Moorish Idols. They frequently come from Hawaii, where they are hand caught near the shore. These fish have been sought after for many years. Their striking patterns and body shape attract all sorts of hobbyists. Unfortunately their track record in the hobby is dismal.
The Past
Moorish Idols were first being captive raised... well I don't know when. But I do know that by 1999 there was enough success to generate serious aquaculture interest. In MASNA's publication Marine Scene (1999) Dennis Gallagher (yes that Dennis!) published an article called "Report From The Philippines" and Dennis stated that if banning the collection of fishes were to take place the breeders would soon be ready to enter the market. Not only enter the market but he stated they would be able to successfully compete with the black market!
So here we are 10 years later and it hasn't happened. Why not?
Number one, collection wasn't banned. Therefore you didn't have to raise them in captivity to get one. But a bigger factor (in my opinion) was pricing. These fish come from Hawaii... are collected in an ecofriendly manner... travel a short distance to the Los Angeles wholesalers... and have relatively little expense when compared to Indian Ocean fishes. The main efforts to breed and raise Idols came from some French scientists. I can't confirm this, but I think one reason it was so popular in Europe was because of the cost of flying the fish from Hawaii made them much more expensive in the Eurpean market. These efforts didn't really take off. Instead, some success in raising the post larval fish took over. Moorish Idols settle on the reef at a very large size. They can be collected off reef in open water in large numbers. From here they can be raised to market size in aquariums. Side note- collecting them is much easier said than done... I tried.
The Current
Right now Moorish Idols are on the no-no list of most aquarists. And for good reason. They typically don't live more than 2 weeks in captivity, one of those weeks spent before the hobbyist even buys the fish. However, this isn't as bad as it sounds. Many fishes don't make it that long in the hobby. What's worse is that for many Indo-Pacific fish there is great loss prior to making it into the US, more loss at the wholesale, and then finally some loss in retail stores. Moorish Idols don't suffer those initial losses. That is a very significant issue. If we ship 100 clown fish from Indonesia to Salt Lake City and only 5 come alive that means we have the %5 strongest fish. Chances are you will do well with those 5 fish. If we ship 100 Moorish Idols from Hawaii to Salt Lake City, almost all 100 will make it here alive. If 95 of them die in a week we're still left with the %5 strongest fish. Many experts argue that the perception of Moorish Idols being difficult to keep is because they all die in the hands of aquarists, and not in the hands of shippers.
Is It Food?
For many upon many years the reasoning behind Idol deaths has been of food concerns. Not enough worms. Not enough sponge. Missing special microinverts from the diet. Needs seaweed. Doesn't eat plankton. Arguements to go around a plenty. And, possibly for good reason. These fish do seem to have special dietary requirements that haven't been fully described.
Is it Disease?
Moorish Idols get sick. No doubt about it. In fact numerous reports show them "bombing" a tank. The Idol gets sick and it dies. That seems bad but it is only the beginning. For when they die they are often times carrying loads of pathogens which then enter the water. The real problem in losing an Idol may not be losing the Idol, but then losing all your other fish in a matter of a few days. A very risky situation (think sea apples).
So why do they get diseased? A couple easy answers, and some tough answers. First, they have scaless soft skin. This is ripe for many parasites. However, in the wild they don't come into contact with many parasites. In home aquariums where everything is so condensed the parasites can't help but land on the fish. The aquariums may just not be big enough. (don't think experts lose everything to disease, read here http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/7/aaeditorial/ - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/7/aaeditorial/ )
Is It Tank Size?
This was ruled out years ago... but is now making a strong case. The fact is some very large aquariums (thousands of gallons) are doing well with Idols. Most of these tanks are in public aquariums. Having a large tank size may be the key in reducing parasites, and providing the live rock growth needed to feed these fish.
Ah, wait, not so fast. I have kept an Idol I had for 2 years? I'm almost embarrased to tell you where I kept it. It was in my 29 gallon tank. That tank NEVER had a single water change. Was I just lucky? Twice? You would think so... if it hadn't been for the other hundreds of hobbyists who also kept Idols alive in small tanks.
And the other part of that, big tanks for more live rock. Well, some of these large tanks are Fish Only Tanks without live rock! And some of these large tanks (withour without live rock) are typically fed foods that are of LOWER quality than what most hobbyists have.
Is it Water Motion?
Another thought on why these fish don't do well in reef tanks is because they are only sort of reef fish. Many Idols are found right near the shore in crashing waves and tide areas. For this reason some people are trying to keep these fish in chaotic tanks filled with waves and water flow.
As a side note, some people (including myself) learned the hard way that these fish are prone to dieing on pumps. They have a tendency to swim right up into the flow... and get stuck right on the Korallia, VorTech, Tunze or whatever stream pump is available. You may think pulse mode will save the fish, but you'd be wrong. They are able to swim to the pump, but they lack the strength to swim away.
Failure Stories
The hobby is filled with them. Buy the fish, take it home, dead in four days. Again, this sounds really bad but they hobby is filled with these stories for many species of fish. However, this one is way up on the list of "bad" because there have been few success stories to go with those failure stories.
Success Stories
Here is where this fish differs from the rest. It has all the failure stories like everything else, but it has few success stories. We know they can be kept in captivity. Some have been kept for many years. Some (reportedly) spawn in captivity. But success has been limited. I myself have kept a Moorish Idol for over two years. I've had another go well over a year. What was my secret? I don't know, I've also had one die at about the 1 month mark (could not keep it away from the pumps). In general, I do well with Moorish Idols. Okay I shouldn't say I do well with them, I should say I do far better than most, but there is still a long ways to go.
To sum up the success, some have been kept in small tanks for years. Recently larger aquariums are having more success. They have been captive raised, and tank reared. But those efforts seem short lived and never really took off.
In every major city and in every aquarium club out there you can find someone doing very well with these fish. They all have their theories on why they are successfull... but no one has really found a method that holds up.
Where the Ideas are Going
For years and years the thought was foods. In fact one of our club member Gary Williams has owned a couple Moorish Idols and they have all done very well for him. He has told me a million times (possibly exagerated) that the key is "spectrum pellets." If I hear Gary tell me one more time to buy "spectrum pellets" I'm shovin' the bottle of food up his... you get the idea.
The trend now isn't that Moorish Idols are difficult to feed (Blundell 2007). In fact I swear I can get any Moorish Idol to eat in captivity. There are some foods that I see them take every time (crushed dainichi, freshwater mysis, ocean nutrition spirulina flake, and yes Gary's spectrum pellets, etc.). If you have an Idol, I can get it to eat. However, it hasn't been shown that these foods contain all the Idol needs. That is hypothesised to potentially be the key. They may be eating these foods but that may be like a human living off of icecream and donuts.
A very popular article by Dr. Thaler in Coral (2007) documented the relative ease in keeping these fish. It indeed sparked the interest of many hobbyists who had shunned these fish fearing them difficult to keep. Dr. Thaler even states "Zanclus cornutus is, without a doubt, a beautiful inhabitant of the aquarium that can grow very old when conditions are right. The only prerequisite is, of course, that the fish is healthy and not "damaged" when it is introduced into the aquarium."
That is some seriously strong language in support of these fish. I for one, am not quite ready to agree with that. Random Thoughts (read this before buying a Moorish Idol)
1) some hobbyists claim that having bright moon lights help Moorish Idols. While the other fish sleep, and the bugs come out, the Idol will stay awake and hunt
2) there is some evidence that after buying an Idol you should keep your tank lights on for several days (Blundell 2008). On the theory that at night they aren't eating I developed a plan for hobbyists to keep their tank lights on 24 hours for several days. It may have helped.
3) You can get Idols to eat... I guarantee it
4) I'm not sure they are eating everything they need to eat
5) They live for many years in small tanks
6) They die within 1 week for almost every tank
7) As difficult as it is for me to think of Spectrum pellets as the key, it is hard to argue against a guy that has had great success
8) Large aquariums are showing success... with or without live rock
9) Disease, disease, disease. It kills Idols
10) A dead Idol can disease and wipe out a tank
Some more random thoughts and information...
17 times more yellow tangs are collected than Moorish Idols
http://www.spc.int/coastfish/News/LRF/2/LRF2.pdf - http://www.spc.int/coastfish/News/LRF/2/LRF2.pdf
A Moorish Idol is worth $3 to the collector
http://www.spc.int/coastfish/News/LRF/2/LRF2.pdf - http://www.spc.int/coastfish/News/LRF/2/LRF2.pdf
It is omnivorous but feeds more on animal life than algae; sponges dominate the animal
diet, but bryozoans, small molluscs, small crustaceans, hydroids, and tunicates have also been found in the stomach contents. http://203.158.191.28/kosin/data/fao_v6/y0870e29.pdf - http://203.158.191.28/kosin/data/fao_v6/y0870e29.pdf
The Moorish idol is important in the aquarium trade, but it does well only in large tanks. Aquarium fish collectors seek only the smaller individuals because adults are too large and do not adapt well to aquarium life. Aquarium fish feed well on chopped clams or mussels, brine shrimp, and tubifex worms. Individual fishes have been reported to survive as long as 10 years in an aquarium.
http://203.158.191.28/kosin/data/fao_v6/y0870e29.pdf - http://203.158.191.28/kosin/data/fao_v6/y0870e29.pdf
The Big Hawaii MPA report
http://www.coralreefnetwork.com/kona/WHAP%202001%20Final%20report.pdf - http://www.coralreefnetwork.com/kona/WHAP%202001%20Final%20report.pdf
Waikiki Aquarium Report
Moorish idols are actually most closely related to the surgeonfishes, sharing similar teeth,
scales, and swimming style (using primarily the pectoral fins), but lacking the tangs' characteristic "scalpel". In shape, behavior and diet, through, the Moorish idol more closely resembles butterflyfishes. Omnivorous, the idol feeds mostly on animal material, like sponges, and extracts prey from crevices with a slightly elongated jaw. The diet makes this species difficult to maintain, but Aquarium Live Exhibits staff find that younger individuals can be trained over to the gelatin food we prepare. http://www.waquarium.org/MLP/root/pdf/MarineLife/Vertebrates/MoorishIdol.pdf - http://www.waquarium.org/MLP/root/pdf/MarineLife/Vertebrates/MoorishIdol.pdf
I'll go get the full report on this, and email to anyone who wants it...
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j177x5l1428074m0/fulltext.pdf?page=1 - http://www.springerlink.com/content/j177x5l1428074m0/fulltext.pdf?page=1
and this as well...
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=8339634 - http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=8339634 This comes to us from Julian Sprung
Sprung, J., (2007), "Moorish Idols in Captivity" Freshwater and Marine Aquarium, August 2008. Irvine, California.
"These idols, held in an exporter's tank, will need to be carefully cared for after they arrive at their destination. Otherwise, they may be susceptible to disease."
"They [Moorish Idols] have an extremely long larval period, which has two important results. They settle as juveniles at an amazingly large 2 1/2 to 3 inches, and they have the potential to drift very long distances during their larval period."
"the Moorish idol has a reputation of being extremely delicate in captivity. In fact, there is a debate among aquarists, because many feel that it should not be collected, while others insist it is "hardy." "
"the Moorish idol is a robust creature despite its dainty form, but it is prone to some diseases that can quickly kill it, and there are other important husbandry issues to consider if one wants to maintain it in captivity."
"I agree with the notion that this is a fish for the dedicated specialist and not for the average beginning hobbyist, though as I said, this does not mean I consider it a delicate species."
"I recommend a minimum tank length of 6 feet."
"A 100-gallon aquarium is really on the threshold of being too small for the long-term maintenance of this species."
"I have observed a few specimens that have been maintained in 30-gallon aquariums successfully for extended periods of time (a few years), but I think these are exceptional specimens in the care of exceptionally good aquarists."
(I knew Julian had seen my old tank, didn't know he'd call me an exceptionally good aquarist
 )Public aquariums do well with Idols when they have sunlight to promote algae growth. Also, big ponds or pools are best. Julian has seen them do well in ponds 12 inches deep! Shallow enough that the dorsal fin sticks out of the water.
"The Moorish idol ranks among the most aggressive reef fish in captivity. It will harass its tankmates to death."
"If you buy a school of similarly sized Moorish idols, they will make a lovely display for three or four days. Then one of them will become isolated and will be chased by the other Moorish idols until it dies... ... this goes on until only one Moorish idol remains."
"The typical advice for anyone contemplating the care of Moorish idols states that delicate fish need docile tankmates. Based on my earlier comments about the attitude of Moorish idols, one can imagine that I don't entirely agree with that advice."
"The main obstacle to the long-term maintenance of the Moorish idol is its low resistance to disease."
"The Moorish idol is very susceptible to the common parasites"
"once it becomes ill it tends to get worse and die much more rapidly than most other marine fish."
"it is not difficult to get a Moorish idol to feed, it is another matter to provide it with the volume of food it requires to remain healthy."
"the Moorish idol has a voracious appetite and often feeds on dried flake food within hours of being introduced into an aquarium."
"Normally, it [Moorish idols] eats just about anything offered"
"it tolerates a wide range of water conditions"
"High ammonium levels, as occur in shipping, probably damage the gills and increase the likelihood of illness."
(chalk up a point for Jake on that one!)
"Ecocean's project in Tahiti, where planktonic larvae are harvested at night by attracting them to floating light traps and then raised in tanks. This produces juvenile Moorish idols that are preadapted to living in aquariums and feeding on artificial diets."
Adam ps- I'm still adding to this post, and I'll be adding pictures later as well.... ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Replies:
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 1:41pm
By the way, I just wasted like an hour typing that up.  I hope someone here learns something and appreciates it. I'm going to take a nap or eat lunch now...
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Shane H
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 1:52pm
You couldn't have save that for the Sea Star? 
|
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 1:54pm
|
Well, I'll try to add more, and add pictures. You can put it in the seastar if you want. But given the recent discussions I thought I'd get out here now, and not later. Tell you what, I'll get you an article on Mandarins or something else that is a hot topic.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Shane H
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 1:56pm
|
Tell you what, I'll get you an article on Mandarins or something else that is a hot topic.
Agreed! The next SeaStar is slated for release - the first of Oct.
|
Posted By: Connie
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 2:11pm
|
I had an idol for two years. Ate right out of my hands. Its only when I gave it to a fellow hobbist that it died.
I fed home made food and often
 , was running two wave 2K's, and had a 210 with tons of rock and a healthy sump.... Who knows. Im glad I had success, its an amazing fish.
Thanks for the info Adam, that was fun to read for someone who has been one of the lucky..
------------- I have flying monkeys and I'm not afraid to use them. 180 gallon money pit that I love..... |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 2:13pm
|
Connie- THAT IS AWESOME! Here is another person in our club who kept an Idol for 2 years and I didn't even know it. Thanks for posting, and describing your setup. Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: lockdown
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 2:29pm
| Wow I always have loved these fish but knew they could be difficult so I stayed away from them. I think a big part of it sounds like patience and research. Thanks Adam for sharing the info. Maybe some day I will give it a go but not anytime soon. It is on my ultimate fish list. |
Posted By: bannshy
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 2:38pm
|
how would one do with a ray zoo's ric's and LPS? |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 2:46pm
|
when we get our tank up and running we are going to have a few. We have had success keeping harder to keep fish. (achilles tangs, cleaner wrasses) I think our success has been attributed to lots of small frequent feedings. turbulent water flow, and pristine water. ------------- I <3 Boxers Achilles tang lover |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 2:50pm
As good as one could do without.... I'll give you a %5 chance 
Kind of smart ass answer, but that is the truth. I mean you can do all you can but I still don't have any secrets. Maybe Connie does. Listen, it is a risky fish. It certainly can be done but I'd fear disease, pumps, and nutrition. So tackle those issues before anything else.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 2:52pm
|
Crystal- by them as pairs. I forgot to write that (I'll go add it now). In the wild they are almost always found as pairs and it is the exception to see them in a group.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 2:53pm
The only thing I know about Moorish Idols is that there are lots more of them in hawaii (kauaii) then yellow tangs!!! 
------------- Jon https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing... |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 2:57pm
|
Good point! In Jon's experience (which we've spoken about before) buying these fish would have less impact than buying a yellow tang.
Thanks Jon (for the unintentional good point)
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: bannshy
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 3:02pm
| I am worried about what corrals the Moorish Idol might eat. I hate the way reef safe is thrown around. I don't know if you covered this in your original post I don't have time to read it I printed it and will read it tonight techically I shouldn't be posting now. |
Posted By: lockdown
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 3:03pm
| So from what I read of this artice, they have been able to breed moorish idols in captivity?How come they can't master that on the yellow tangs or other surgeon fish? Sorry, I am plucking your brain Adam! |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 3:10pm
|
Lockdown that is a good question. And yep, you are stretching me here.
Difference between raising tangs and raising gobies is huge. That I could answer.
Difference between raising Idols and raising tangs is small. So that is very tough to answer.
You know, right off... you've stumped me. We can get fertilized tang eggs, producing larvae. But other than some minimal success with Yellow Tangs I don't think any tang has been captive raised. No one has taken larvae to juvenile.
You know what. You'll have to ask me again sometime. I don't think I know the answer to that.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: bannshy
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 3:14pm
|
My guess is when you can collect some species easily why try to raise them. It takes a lot of passion to try new things and Money drives passion sometimes.
I want to have a Moorish Idol I think they are a geourges fish and would love to solve how to keep them effectivly. Not for the money but for the Moorish Idol.
Sea Dragons are next in line in my book. that is why I want to learn everything I can about seahorses they are awsome fish in their own right also.
|
Posted By: lockdown
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 3:19pm
|
I see how tank bred clown fish are stronger then ocean netted fish. I am wondering if raising the the larvae or captive raising tangs would produce a stronger more resistant to disease tang? I just look how far this hobby has come in just 10 years and I am wondering when the hobbyist or marine biologists will be able to master captive raising most of these fish. |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 4:02pm
|
i'm pretty sure the issue is what they eat as young. they have been breeding mandarins and raising the young now with success, but only from wild zooplankton. They dont know EXACTLy what they eat. we have such success with clowns because we can raise them on rotifers which are easy to culture by us.
I totally understand the success rate :) I think half the battle is getting a healthy specimen. its hard to fight a battle that is already lost before you even geti t home. I've heard of a lot of success with feeding them bannnanas at first. it resembles a sponge and has good nutritional value. ------------- I <3 Boxers Achilles tang lover |
Posted By: Jake Pehrson
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 5:26pm
|
I have a feeling (that is all it is), that Moorish Idols often die from bad acclimation procedures. I think they may be more prone to ammonia gill damage and therefore die within a few week/days. (this is all total speculation)
I have had a couple of good experience with Idol's. It seems if they live for 6-8 weeks then they usually do pretty well after that. ------------- Jake Pehrson Murray http://coralplanet.com" rel="nofollow - coralplanet.com http://utahbeeranch.com" rel="nofollow - :) |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 7:25pm
|
I have had 2 Moorish Idols... the first I had for approx 4 years until I moved to UT and sold it along with my setup (it was alive and well when I sold it)... the second for about 5 weeks in 2003. For the first Idol I took the advice of a guy on RC (also from Long Island) named Paul who kept an Idol for 7 or 8 years; he recommended feedings of banana (yes, you read that correctly, banana) and live mussels served "on the half shell", in addition to more traditional marine foods... to feed banana, cut off maybe an inch thick piece off a semi-ripe banana and freeze it overnight. Slice off as thin a slice as you can (like a potato chip) and place it in some warm water to defrost. For a smaller Idol, cut that "chip" in half. Pour the water containing the banana into the tank. The mussels, place one on the sandbed and remove after 10 minutes, even if some is left. (Many of your other fish will eat it too). Paul also fed his Idol an orange sponge that he collected off of a few boat piers; I tried that a few times but it was not part of my Idols usual food regimen - plus the part of LI I lived on it wasn't nearly as common... My Idol also liked Spectrum pellets, frozen squid, picking off the Live Rock - and that's pretty much it. Tried clams, didn't like that. Would "sample" some of the other foods that went into the tank, but not with any regularity or heavy feeding...
Second Idol basically never ate enough and starved to death... would "sample" live Brine, pick at the LR, and I saw it eat a few pellets once... but otherwise, ignored everything else I tried. No luck at all with banana or mussels, clams, squid, etc. It was very frustrating because although not "fat" when I got it, it was healthy-looking as far as no pinched belly or gaunt look. Near the end it looked emaciated and you could see it getting weaker by the day - ribs sticking out, heavy respiration, etc. Very frustrating. And partly my fault, as with this fish I bought it even though it wouldn't eat in the LFS tank - I guess I just got cocky because I had had good luck with the first one and thought I had the problem solved...
 In both cases the setups were basically FOWLRs with a few hardy soft corals and inverts thrown in. Water conditions were stable but not "pristine" as you might expect in a Reef Aquarium... First guy was in with a Panther Grouper, Niger Trigger, Russell Lionfish, and a Porcupine Puffer. Second was in with a Picasso Trigger, Undulated Trigger, Yellow Tang, Spotted Grouper, and a juvi Queen Angel. Both times the tank was a 125g. Never saw the Idol bother any of the crabs / snails / urchins or Leather corals / mushrooms that I had in either tank.
So, with the 225g now, it is tempting to try again, even if it meant a healthy, surviving Idol would mean nibbling at some of my current crop of corals and perhaps clams... I think if I saw one in a LFS that was healthy looking, reasonably priced, and would eat heartily in the store tank I might give it another shot. Definitely a challenge, though...
 ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 7:28pm
|
Great article! Thanks for taking the time to write it Adam.
Mike -------------  |
Posted By: Will Spencer
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 8:08pm
I realize that names have been withheld to protect the guilty, but I'll fess up. It was an awesome fish and Connie did a great job of taking care of it. It lived in my tank for almost 3 months until the tank crashed. The unfortunate part is that the Idol had nothing to do with the crash, it was just a poor unfortunate bystander. (I mean byswimmer.)
|
Connie wrote:Posted By: Will Spencer
Date Posted: September 16 2008 at 8:17pm
| By the way Connie, which corals was your Idol Picking at that prompted you to get it out of the tank? SPS? LPS? or something else? |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: September 17 2008 at 9:01am
|
Bob- 4 years! That is great. Beyond great actually.
And thanks for the input on your setups.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Suzy
Date Posted: September 20 2008 at 9:21am
|
This is very interesting to see all these reports of how well these fish do in home aquariums. I have been misled over the past decade with all the caveats on other forums telling us how difficult they are. It's great to see how many people here are keeping them so successfully. I settled for a Heniocus butterfly (sorry about the butchered spelling of that funky latin name) because I thought I couldn't have one! Anyone seen one of these funky fish around in the fish store lately? I have room for one more fish! ------------- http://www.suzysreef.com - SuzysReef.com http://z4.invisionfree.com/UtahBreeder/index.php?showtopic=11&st=0&#last - Using Macroalgae for Aquascaping |
Posted By: tileman
Date Posted: September 20 2008 at 10:01am
|
Suzy, Give Shawn a call, he usually has some real nice Idols. ------------- 335G Reef TOTM. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/2/aquarium ReefKeepers TOTM Feb. 2012 http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index....k-of-the-month & |
Posted By: Jeff Morrill
Date Posted: September 21 2008 at 8:13am
|
Good read Adam thanks for the time spent. ------------- WHAT KINDA GUM????... Give em 2 sticks. |
Posted By: bbauman
Date Posted: September 21 2008 at 12:41pm
|
I think this just goes to show how much you can learn about something if you research it, study it out, and plan well before you buy something and put it in your tank. It doesn't mean it will always go well but it DOES mean that your chances are a lot higher to give the fish you take into your care a proper and healthy chance at long aquarium life. ------------- 28g Cube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23030" rel="nofollow - Beginners Guide to Saltwater Aquariums Brandon in West Jordan |
Posted By: idahreefer
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 2:37pm
|
I kept 3 of them alive for over 5 years, only died when I had to move & gave them to a fellow fish lover, they do get very tame & will eat out of your hands, I started them off by feeding them opened clams I got from the local grocery store, then they just ate everything like all the other fish did, this was along time ago before new life spectrum, it was over 20 years ago long before the reef craze & those bland looking dead coral skeleton systems, they were in with large angels, tangs, eels & triggers, it was an odell 220 gal, if anyone remembers odell tanks, who knows why they were with me that long, some of the angels were also hard to keep species, like the rock beauty, emperor & even an achillis tang! I still look at my old photo's of them & wonder why they lived, I just thought they were suppose to, however I couldn't keep a powder blue to save my life! now I have one who is happy, healthy & oh so mean!
------------- martin |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 6:10pm
|
You kept three of them alive for over 5 years!?!?!?!?!?!?
Wow, I can't believe that. Beyond wonderful.
Imagine, and some ignorant people out there still think they are impossible. Some people like to spread bad information. Yet another great example of someone showing what can be done (even 20 years ago).
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 6:33pm
|
Well, I wouldn't say "impossible" - but I'd still recommend against most people trying them...
I think they need alot of time and attention the first 3 months to make sure they are eating well and not declining... after that, I think they get a little "tame" and are more manageable.
But I think most folks can't invest their own attention and time to caring for this fish to the point that I'd recommend them to anyone but a "seasoned vet"... and I also think they can still be "hit or miss" - even in the best of hobbyists hands. ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 7:18pm
if I remember correctly about five years ago or more powder blues were considered IMPOSSIBLE to keep. I remember wanting one and researching them. I decided against one because of all the information about poor survival rates. They are still a finicky fish, but certainly not impossible to keep. Achilles tangs are becoming more popular as people learn what they need. I know of about 10-15 people on reefcentral with thriving happy healthy fish. One guy even has a shoal of them!!!!! So i think that as techniches are perfected and appropriate water flow etc are given that impossible fish become possible. While they still may not be for a beginner they are something a lot of us can keep and enjoy.
As bad as this sounds some of the harder we keep fish die in the name of science if you will.... As we keep striving to keep these harder to keep fish they become more attainable for everyone. One day we may own the only corals and reef fish in our tanks. It is very possible with the bleaching of reefs and lionfish taking over etc. I feel by captively raising fish and corals I am doing my part. But thats just me :) ------------- I <3 Boxers Achilles tang lover |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 10:11pm
|
Crystal- are you sure you posted that? Dang that post sounds like I wrote it. Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: September 26 2008 at 10:22pm
|
I'm pretty sure it was me, but you could of taken over my screen name haha. ------------- I <3 Boxers Achilles tang lover |
Posted By: Reefski
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 6:59pm
|
If we ship 100 clown fish from Indonesia to Salt Lake City and only 5
come alive that means we have the %5 strongest fish. Chances are you
will do well with those 5 fish. If we ship 100 Moorish Idols
from Hawaii to Salt Lake City, almost all 100 will make it here alive.
If 95 of them die in a week we're still left with the %5 strongest
fish. Many experts argue that the perception of Moorish Idols being difficult to keep is because they all die in the hands of aquarists, and not in the hands of shippers. Adam i would strongly disagree with the statement above. this is faulty reasoning. do those 5% of clown fish go on to live the 20 years a clown fish lives in the wild or captivity? 95% of clownfish do not die in shipping or in the aquarium. if the Morrish idols survive transport in a higher percentage that means they are healthier when they arrive. so it is not just dying in the hands of aquarists that matters but rather the long term survival. being able to provide them conditions that will enable them to live a normal lifespan in captivity. using your first argument about clown fish applied to Moorish Idols the high % that made it alive should do well in captivity. but they do not! if a dog or cat or bird has a normal lifespan of 15 years let's say, would you call it a success if most of them died within the first days or weeks you had it and none made it to their normal lifespan? can you point us to references and name the many experts who argue it is only perception that they are difficult to keep? it is not just perception, it is reality. i would also like to have the references to captive breeding. if they could spawn and raise juveniles which are much more difficult than adult fish to feed and take care of why can't anyone keep the adults. using clown fish for example, people have figured out how to spawn and feed the juveniles and raise them to maturity. the adults don't all just die once they become adults. in other words it is much easier to take care of an adult clown fish than a fry. i was recently at the Goergia Aquarium. they have several Swimming in their 265,000 gallon reef display. Kim Hall told me they have lots of sponges and other inverts growing on the live rock in this system. who knows if they will have long term success with them, after all the aquarium has only been open a short time. but if anywhere can have success i would expect it there. it was wonderful to see them swimming together on the reef.  they are beautiful fish, no denying that. please leave Idols to the public aquariums and other scientists to study for now. even if 5% make it that means 95% don't. by not buying the one fish you are saving twenty using Adams figures. but it may be saving 1,000 or more. save a fish, don't buy it! Carl |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 9:09pm
|
Welcome Reefski!
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: sanddune600
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 9:42pm
|
I agree these are stunning fish and I was looking at getting one for myself but I started to read up on them and find out their survival rate let advanced people try and figure out what their are lacking then we can all get them with a higher survival rate
------------- Andy Jorgensen My number is four three 5 7 six four 8 0 three four |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: September 28 2008 at 10:12pm
|
Hey Carl glad you made it here.
(for those of you who don't know Carl he is an aquarist in Souther Cal. We had the opportunity to visit some wholesale facilities together last month)
I'll do my best to answer your questions, but it is basically like we talked about at your house. They are certainly a risky fish, no denying that. But they certainly aren't impossible. Heck this thread alone shows numerous people in our club who've kept them for years. That certainly doesn't mean I'm telling people to go buy them. Don't get that idea. I'm also not telling people to buy Powder Blues or Achillies. I'm just saying don't write off this fish so quickly considering there has been some success.
do those 5% of clown fish go on to live the 20 years a clown fish lives in the wild or captivity?
Well now that is an excellent point. We don't keep fish anywhere near their life span. If you want to talk about fish in the hobby that live for 20 years you are so far below %1. I don't think we could even measure it. I agree on that. A good point I didn't talk about (true for all fish, not just Idols). And of course we don't just ship 100 clowns to Salt Lake and they arrive dead. I mean they go through all sorts of steps along the way where we see the mortality. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2004/media.htm - http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2004/media.htm
if a dog or cat or bird has a normal lifespan of 15 years let's say, would you call it a success if most of them died within the first days or weeks you had it and none made it to their normal lifespan?
Keep in mind the average salt water fish never makes it past the larval stages. Even a juvenile fish has really beaten the odds. I guess measuring success is different for each hobbyist. To me, when one of my fish turns 2 years old in my tank I'm excited. I don't really know why that has been my goal??? Maybe years ago someone told me you were good if you keep fish for 2 years or something, I really don't remember.
can you point us to references and name the many experts who argue it is only perception that they are difficult to keep? it is not just perception, it is reality.
I'm sure I can. Tomorrow I'll see what I can find. Although at MACNA I would have thought you would have found people who would have said this? Oh, and do you have that Thaller article (Coral) with you. I was just reading it the other day, and dang there are a number of quotes in there (I put some at the first of this thread) where she makes these fish sound like easy fish. I don't agree with her, but then again she is smarter than I am so who knows.
i would also like to have the references to captive breeding. if they could spawn and raise juveniles which are much more difficult than adult fish to feed and take care of why can't anyone keep the adults.
Now that is a very good question. I didn't really address that did I. Moorish Idols tend to feed off of sponges, worms, critters (like you said). But that isn't true for the larvae and even for the juveniles before they settle on the reef. They are in the open ocean and feeding on plankton. I think (my opinion) that this is one reason why a captive raised or tank raised would do better than wild caught as they would be raised without that special diet and would be raised on prepared foods.
Although I wouldn't say that nobody can keep them. Again, several people in this club have. using clown fish for example, people have figured out how to spawn and feed the juveniles and raise them to maturity. the adults don't all just die once they become adults. in other words it is much easier to take care of an adult clown fish than a fry.
Correct. No argument here.
who knows if they will have long term success with them, after all the aquarium has only been open a short time
I somewhat agree. If they've had those fish for over a year then count me as one of the people saying they are successful. I realize that isn't like keeping them for 15 years but heck I don't think anyone has kept a damsel or a chromis for 15 years. Heck an Idol that lives for a year at a public aquarium could well outlive many of the other "easy" fish they have.
please leave Idols to the public aquariums and other scientists to study for now.
even if 5% make it that means 95% don't. by not buying the one fish you are saving twenty using Adams figures. but it may be saving 1,000 or more. I'll definitely disagree here. I think someone like you Carl is a perfect person to experiment with this fish. Trust me, scientists don't have all that you have going for your tank. Trust me, most scientists and experts in this field have a bare 55 gal tank. They don't have 1500 gallons of water with a refugium, skimmer, natural sunlight.... dude you are way ahead of the experts. Your system is the best there is. If there is any chance of us learning more about these fishes it could be done in your tank.
I do agree. If you don't buy the fish, you could save many many more. And buy buying a fish you in effect contribute to the deaths of many other fish. That is quite sad, but true.
Adam
ps- thanks again for coming here
------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 11:42am
|
Some more random thoughts and information...
17 times more yellow tangs are collected than Moorish Idols
http://www.spc.int/coastfish/News/LRF/2/LRF2.pdf - http://www.spc.int/coastfish/News/LRF/2/LRF2.pdf
A Moorish Idol is worth $3 to the collector
http://www.spc.int/coastfish/News/LRF/2/LRF2.pdf - http://www.spc.int/coastfish/News/LRF/2/LRF2.pdf
It is omnivorous but feeds more on animal life than algae; sponges dominate the animal
diet, but bryozoans, small molluscs, small crustaceans, hydroids, and tunicates have also been found in the stomach contents. http://203.158.191.28/kosin/data/fao_v6/y0870e29.pdf - http://203.158.191.28/kosin/data/fao_v6/y0870e29.pdf
The Moorish idol is important in the aquarium trade, but it does well only in large tanks. Aquarium fish collectors seek only the smaller individuals because adults are too large and do not adapt well to aquarium life. Aquarium fish feed well on chopped clams or mussels, brine shrimp, and tubifex worms. Individual fishes have been reported to survive as long as 10 years in an aquarium.
http://203.158.191.28/kosin/data/fao_v6/y0870e29.pdf - http://203.158.191.28/kosin/data/fao_v6/y0870e29.pdf
The Big Hawaii MPA report
http://www.coralreefnetwork.com/kona/WHAP%202001%20Final%20report.pdf - http://www.coralreefnetwork.com/kona/WHAP%202001%20Final%20report.pdf
Waikiki Aquarium Report
Moorish idols are actually most closely related to the surgeonfishes, sharing similar teeth,
scales, and swimming style (using primarily the pectoral fins), but lacking the tangs' characteristic "scalpel". In shape, behavior and diet, through, the Moorish idol more closely resembles butterflyfishes. Omnivorous, the idol feeds mostly on animal material, like sponges, and extracts prey from crevices with a slightly elongated jaw. The diet makes this species difficult to maintain, but Aquarium Live Exhibits staff find that younger individuals can be trained over to the gelatin food we prepare. http://www.waquarium.org/MLP/root/pdf/MarineLife/Vertebrates/MoorishIdol.pdf - http://www.waquarium.org/MLP/root/pdf/MarineLife/Vertebrates/MoorishIdol.pdf
I'll go get the full report on this, and email to anyone who wants it...
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j177x5l1428074m0/fulltext.pdf?page=1 - http://www.springerlink.com/content/j177x5l1428074m0/fulltext.pdf?page=1
and this as well...
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=8339634 - http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=8339634
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 2:31pm
|
I'm interested in the full report. mailto:[email protected] - [email protected]
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 3:56pm
|
achilles tangs are worth their weight :) ------------- I <3 Boxers Achilles tang lover |
Posted By: Reefski
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 6:37pm
|
Adam-- can you send me the full reports also? why do you consider it a success if you keep a fish alive only two years? i know you said it was from the past. maybe you can change the way you think about them. just because most of the fry die soon after hatching doesn't mean that the adults don't matter either. just because they only fetch $3 or sell for $50 or whatever doesn't mean just because you can afford them they should be expendable. as a scientist animals are sacrificed to further the common good. that isn't the case in buying animals that will likely die soon in our care. i do have lots of sponges in my system which i think are fascinating and maybe i could keep an Idol alive for an extended period, but i still am not going to encourage the collection of more Idols by buying one. that would still lead to the death of many. idol food?    ------------- Carl sun powered 700 gallon reef |
Posted By: Dion Richins
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 9:20pm
|
Looks Like my tank ------------- http://www.customaquariumfurniture.com" rel="nofollow - Bad "censored" Cabinets Best quality in the valley! He is one sexy bald guy, even with out a finger!(MAC) |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: September 29 2008 at 9:59pm
|
Carl-
All very good points. Maybe off topic, but I'll follow up with a question.
Is it okay to buy yellow tangs? We can't breed them. We can't keep them in captivity for a normal lifespan. And many would argue we can't provide tanks big enough for them.
I don't disagree with any of your statements. But I think we could take all your questions and apply them to any number of fish: yellow tangs, lionfish, frogfish, scooter dragonets, coris wrasse, niger trigger, etc.
For any of those fish we could say...
Can we provide a good environment for any of them?
Can we keep them in captivity for their entire lifespan?
Can we breed them?
Is keeping them for 2 years successful?
To be honest, I think the answer to those questions is the same for Idols as it is for anything else.
Adam
ps- I don't think anyone in this club has kept a frogfish for over two years, but numerous people have kept an Idol that long ;) ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 01 2008 at 12:19am
|
Does anyone else besides me, want to see pics of Carl's sunlit tank?
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member 
|
Posted By: bbauman
Date Posted: October 01 2008 at 8:32am
Me!  ------------- 28g Cube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23030" rel="nofollow - Beginners Guide to Saltwater Aquariums Brandon in West Jordan |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: October 01 2008 at 9:38am
|
It is awesome. My wife and I had the chance to stay at Carl's place for a weekend (with his wonderful wife Pam as well). They are great people, and we very much enjoyed our visit. I have a ton of pics I can post, but he also has some threads on his tank.
Read this... http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic70159-25-1.aspx - http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic70159-25-1.aspx
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: October 01 2008 at 9:47am
Here are some samples of photos I took at his house....
 
 
 
 
------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: October 01 2008 at 9:57am
One more pic... my daughter really liked the easy viewing height for kids...
 ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Mike Savage
Date Posted: October 01 2008 at 4:50pm
|
Great pictures, especially the last one.
Mike ------------- |
Posted By: bbauman
Date Posted: October 01 2008 at 5:10pm
|
Very cool. I liked looking at the setup on the other forum. Reefski, I hope you recover from your recent "bad tasting" experience quickly. ------------- 28g Cube http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23030" rel="nofollow - Beginners Guide to Saltwater Aquariums Brandon in West Jordan |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 01 2008 at 6:41pm
|
Sweet, very sweet. What is used for supplemental lighting at night? ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
|
Posted By: dew2loud1
Date Posted: October 01 2008 at 9:06pm
|
I've been following carls tank from the beginning love the title on RC, how I spent my daughters inheritance, We will most likely use a very similar lighting setup for our big tank, but I'm planning on filtering the light and using supplemental t5's for a much "bluer" color |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: October 06 2008 at 12:54pm
|
I don't know if anyone is still following this or not but I'll add to it.
One of my coworkers asked me if I was still posting on the Idols because another article came across the desk. Anyway I figured I'd read it and post some quotes here.
This comes to us from Julian Sprung
Sprung, J., (2007), "Moorish Idols in Captivity" Freshwater and Marine Aquarium, August 2008. Irvine, California.
"These idols, held in an exporter's tank, will need to be carefully cared for after they arrive at their destination. Otherwise, they may be susceptible to disease."
"They [Moorish Idols] have an extremely long larval period, which has two important results. They settle as juveniles at an amazingly large 2 1/2 to 3 inches, and they have the potential to drift very long distances during their larval period."
"the Moorish idol has a reputation of being extremely delicate in captivity. In fact, there is a debate among aquarists, because many feel that it should not be collected, while others insist it is "hardy." "
"the Moorish idol is a robust creature despite its dainty form, but it is prone to some diseases that can quickly kill it, and there are other important husbandry issues to consider if one wants to maintain it in captivity."
"I agree with the notion that this is a fish for the dedicated specialist and not for the average beginning hobbyist, though as I said, this does not mean I consider it a delicate species."
"I recommend a minimum tank length of 6 feet."
"A 100-gallon aquarium is really on the threshold of being too small for the long-term maintenance of this species."
"I have observed a few specimens that have been maintained in 30-gallon aquariums successfully for extended periods of time (a few years), but I think these are exceptional specimens in the care of exceptionally good aquarists."
(I knew Julian had seen my old tank, didn't know he'd call me an exceptionally good aquarist
)Public aquariums do well with Idols when they have sunlight to promote algae growth. Also, big ponds or pools are best. Julian has seen them do well in ponds 12 inches deep! Shallow enough that the dorsal fin sticks out of the water.
"The Moorish idol ranks among the most aggressive reef fish in captivity. It will harass its tankmates to death."
"If you buy a school of similarly sized Moorish idols, they will make a lovely display for three or four days. Then one of them will become isolated and will be chased by the other Moorish idols until it dies... ... this goes on until only one Moorish idol remains."
"The typical advice for anyone contemplating the care of Moorish idols states that delicate fish need docile tankmates. Based on my earlier comments about the attitude of Moorish idols, one can imagine that I don't entirely agree with that advice."
"The main obstacle to the long-term maintenance of the Moorish idol is its low resistance to disease."
"The Moorish idol is very susceptible to the common parasites"
"once it becomes ill it tends to get worse and die much more rapidly than most other marine fish."
"it is not difficult to get a Moorish idol to feed, it is another matter to provide it with the volume of food it requires to remain healthy."
"the Moorish idol has a voracious appetite and often feeds on dried flake food within hours of being introduced into an aquarium."
"Normally, it [Moorish idols] eats just about anything offered"
"it tolerates a wide range of water conditions"
"High ammonium levels, as occur in shipping, probably damage the gills and increase the likelihood of illness."
(chalk up a point for Jake on that one!)
Adam
------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: October 06 2008 at 12:58pm
|
And one final item. Important enough that I thought I'd post it after that list...
Julian Sprung, describing the sources of Moorish idols...
"Ecocean's project in Tahiti, where planktonic larvae are harvested at night by attracting them to floating light traps and then raised in tanks. This produces juvenile Moorish idols that are preadapted to living in aquariums and feeding on artificial diets."
Hopefully that answers Suzy's concerns about them.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Reefski
Date Posted: October 06 2008 at 8:18pm
Adam- yellow tangs. i think you are wrong about them. of course you need a big enough tank for whatever fish you might get and that varies from fish to fish. you wouldn't put most puffers in an average tank either, well maybe you would. i was at a house just yesterday that had a 20"+ puffer in the tank. however the tank was over 3,000 gallons. i don't know what a yellow tangs lifespan should be but it is definitely longer than 2 years. a friend i saw yesterday has a yellow tang in her 350 gallon tank that she has had for 15 years. that is what we should be striving for. the other fish you cited probably aren't fish that should be collected either as they are doomed to a short life in captivity. the answer for Idols is not the same "as it is for anything else". it is the same for some fish for sure and i don't think we should encourage collection of those fish by buying them either. but it is not the same "for anything else" to say that all fish are the same is irresponsible and wrong. ------------- Carl sun powered 700 gallon reef |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: October 07 2008 at 8:30am
|
the answer for Idols is not the same "as it is for anything else". it is the same for some fish for sure and i don't think we should encourage collection of those fish by buying them either. but it is not the same "for anything else" to say that all fish are the same is irresponsible and wrong. I agree. They aren't the same as all fish. I'm fully aware of these fish being difficult to keep and a very risky fish to try and keep. But I think we should keep things in perspective with how difficult other fish are as well, and what success/failures are out there. We shouldn't just throw this fish off into its own category. Adam
ps- it sounds to me like Julian thinks these fish aren't all that bad also, we all know that Scott Michael is highly advocating for keeping frogfish... so even some experts out there have these thoughts. ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 08 2008 at 4:40pm
|
I know this is done all the time, but maybe it would be fun to do it here, in a new topic/thread of course.... http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28540&PID=256135#256135 - http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28540&PID=256135#256135 ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
|
Posted By: dca22anderson
Date Posted: October 09 2008 at 10:45pm
|
Adam...Thanks for the information...one of my favorite fish...great piece. Do you of anyone who has kept a pair in a home aquarium?
Thanks for sharing! ------------- Dave Anderson Saratoga Springs, UT |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: October 10 2008 at 2:10am
|
there is a guy on reefcentral that has a trio in a tank
------------- I <3 Boxers Achilles tang lover |
Posted By: dca22anderson
Date Posted: October 10 2008 at 11:05pm
|
Thanks cl2ysta1! I'll check it out ------------- Dave Anderson Saratoga Springs, UT |
Posted By: cl2ysta1
Date Posted: October 13 2008 at 8:01am
|
here is the idol thread on RC. you will see MANY people are successful with these guys
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=993712&highlight=moorish+idol - http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=993712&highlight=moorish+idol ------------- I <3 Boxers Achilles tang lover |
Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: October 13 2008 at 8:52am
|
you will see MANY people are successful with these guys
Don't say that too loud. Otherwise you'll start getting pm's.
Adam ------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun! |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 13 2008 at 8:32pm
The thread features "Paul B" - he is the guy I mentioned earlier who lives on Long Island (like I used to) and feeds his Idol sponges he harvests from local waters and banana - his Reef tank has been up and running for almost 35 years straight
I quite possibly sold him some of his reef stuff when I was a teenager at my first job ever!You think I'm bad with my "old school" plenums? Paul runs a reverse flow UGF with dolomite gravel - and he has a couple of old, algae covered beer bottles in his tank!
And he had a "cusk eel" (that's a type of brotula, right?) that lived for 18 years
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=6c343045035fd5e1ad60b50d07d33b67&threadid=727454 - http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=6c343045035fd5e1ad60b50d07d33b67&threadid=727454
He's a nice guy and it's a great read
 ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: dew2loud1
Date Posted: October 13 2008 at 9:53pm
|
I was just reading Paul's stuff the past couple days, Just goes to show that many old school methods are very successful , but I really admire his perseverance and dedication to the hobby, He only runs his reverse UGF at less than 50 GPH, so its effectively a plenum, he just started doing that before it was coined plenum Oh yeah he also has used long island harbor water in his reef tanks since 1968, ha and we worry about if our DI resin is going bad, just goes to show how hardy many corals are. Even though his methods are old school he has always ran a protein skimmer and Ozone, which I'm sure is part of his success I laughed when he said he did his "every 25 year" gravel cleaning a few years back.... |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 13 2008 at 10:27pm
Kyle - I'm so glad you pointed out that one of the longest running (private) aquariums in the country uses SPT (Superior Plenum Technology) so I didn't have to
 And 35+ years without a sandbed "crash"... let's see the DSB guys top that!
My first plenum was just a UGF that had one of the lift tubes knocked out of its hole and the tube hole had filled in with sand so I couldn't put it back in. Then I went and pulled the other side lift tube out because with the 1 tube it looked "uneven"
so only the plate was left under the sandbed. I didn't want to pull that out because I figured it would turn the water all cloudy to do it, so I just left it in...I remember that a couple of months later I started getting "0" nO3 readings and at first just figured my test kit went bad or something
I didn't even start with the eggcrate plenums until maybe 10 years ago... before that I would just buy UGFs and toss out the lift tubes
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |