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Sump/Refugium

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Forum Name: DIY
Forum Description: Do it Yourself
URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=445
Printed Date: July 17 2026 at 7:29pm
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Topic: Sump/Refugium
Posted By: rfoote
Subject: Sump/Refugium
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 7:07am
I am thinking of taking the dive into the refugium world.  However, with present limitations with my pos sump I would need to replace it.  Also, I would have a pretty difficult time adding a refugium seperate from my sump because of space size and it would have to go in the basement below the tank.  So I guess what I am thinking is replacing my sump/wet dry system with a sump/refugium.  Wondering the best way to do this and the most cost effective.  I would need to seperate(with baffles?) the refugium from the sump being I want to keep my skimmer in the sump.  Offer up any suggestions or ideas!  Thanks!



Replies:
Posted By: KeoDog
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 7:46am
I designed mine after the ecosystem filter using an old 30g tank and love it.  I looked at the ones at Bird World to get my design. I have my skimmer in the front section which over flows to a wet/dry area with bioballs then goes to the refugium then thru a section to place carbon or other media then to the last section that has the pump.

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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
300g reef

"A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud."   Ayn Rand


Posted By: Flaz
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 8:04am

If you have access to a good table-saw building a sump from acrylic is pretty straight forward.  I built mine for about $60.  This would allow you to custom size it to you stand, pumps, and skimmer.  Even simpler though, is to use a glass tank and partition it as KeoDog described...



Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 8:17am
KeoDog - How did you partition it off?  Are you doing any type of refugium in it?  Also, being a glass tank how did you get your return back to the tank?


Posted By: KeoDog
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 8:52am

I went to Regional Plastics and had them cut me some 1/4" plexiglass partitions that I siliconed in. I was going to cut them myself but they only charged $5 to make all the cuts.   The first section almost goes to the top of the tank. This is where my skimmer and heaters are. The next section is made of 2 pieces with the water flow going between them to the refugiim. The refugium is about 6" deep with 1.5" substrate and macros.  The final section has a submersible pump in it for the return. You are welcome to come by and look at it if you want.  Just give me a call at 594-2132 durring the day or 816-9359 evenings.  I live in Sandy.



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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
300g reef

"A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud."   Ayn Rand


Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 9:22am
If I go with a glass tank I will need to go with a submersible pump for a return.  I have been checking out mag drives, but to be honest not sure what I need?  What do I need to consider when looking for a return pump?  Not sure what gph I really need?  I presently have an Iwaki external - can't remember its gph - will check out tonight.  Thanks!


Posted By: KeoDog
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 12:49pm

Size of pump needed is determined by how often you want to turn your water over and how much water your overflow system can handle.  What size is your tank?  You can have a glass tank drilled if you want to use an external pump or make your sump out of acrylic like Flaz suggested. Here are some of the best places I've found for Mag pumps.

http://www.aquatictech.com/pumps.html">http://www.aquatictech.com/pumps.html

http://www.petsolutions.com/cgi-bin/cgicatls?l=42">http://www.petsolutions.com/cgi-bin/cgicatls?l=42

http://www.bigalsonline.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?inSupplier=Supreme+Mag+Drive&inUID=1051124335.1051124335">http://www.bigalsonline.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?inSupplier=Supreme+Mag+Drive&inUID=1051124335.1051124335



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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
300g reef

"A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud."   Ayn Rand


Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 12:55pm
My tank is 150 gal. - I'm thinking I would rather go with the glass tank and just use a mag pump.  Flaz's is probably better looking, but I just don't know if I'd ever get it done with building it out of acrylic myself.


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 2:31pm

rfoote,  why change pumps?  Glass or plastic can be drilled.  I just don't see a need to buy a new pump.  Those Iwakis are nice pumps.

The easiest method is to do what keodog suggested.  Buy a glass aquarium that will fit under your sump and still big enough to do what you want.  Get it drilled for return pump(s).  Silicone in glass or plastic baffles.

A better approach, imo, is to go plexiglass.  It can be made to any size you desire.  It's easy to work with and probably cheaper then glass, if diy.  I'd be more than willing to help you in this endeavor.  I've got all the tools needed and I wouldn't mind building someone elses sump before I build mine .



-------------
Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 2:53pm
So I would be your guniea pig aye?  Thanks!  I'm gonna run around tonight and check out some setups and so on and I'll let you know.  I kind of like the custom acrylic idea though.  I wouldn't mind keeping the external pump - just worries me sometimes how hot it gets.  Is that normal?  With glass being drilled is it generally pretty safe from leaks?  My wife is going to kill me if I have anymore spills!


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 3:18pm

Kind of a guniea pig, I've built skimmers before, just never built a sump.  I don't think it would be that much different though.

The pumps do get hot, usually nothing to worry about.  Now imagine that pump in your sump...you might not need a heater!

Glass sumps with bulkheads won't leak any more/less then acrylic ones.  Usually it's the plumbing that leaks.  Speaking of wifes, no matter how sneaky I am, she always seems to catch me when I have a towel in my hand.



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Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 3:24pm
I was just joking about the guniea pig deal!  I barely need a heater as it is right now.  Space is always an issue with my setup unfortunately.  I will do many things differently the next go around.    That is the only thing my wife hates about the tank, other than I spend more time with it than I do her, other than I spend more $ on it than I do her.  JJ - She is actually pretty good about it!  Thanks for the offer - I may just take you up on it!  I'm sure both of our wives would appreciate it!  Hehehe!


Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: April 23 2003 at 9:31pm
Jon - I tried responding to your pm - but says you have reached your max.  I'll give you a call tomorrow.  Here are some ideas I have - My rough dimensions I can go are 34" long 14" deep and rougly 12" high.  I could go a little higher it will just make it rougher to work with.  Actually 14" high would probably be ok.  I'm thinking something like this;  Anyone else chime in with thoughts and so on.  Water in from overflow to sump through two baffles(first notched thru the bottom and second baffle overflows to the top into refugium area).  From what I understand this should decrease bubbling.  Then refugium area which goes into either one or two compartments - 1st would have skimmer overflowing into another with return.  I am thinking because of space I might then have a final small area for a submersible pump as my return.  What do you think?


Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 7:00am

Sump size - actually thinking about it I could really go about 10" longer if I did go with a in sump pump.  I figure this would be a good idea to increase my refugium size.



Posted By: peiji
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 7:59am
I've got a question about sumps/refugiums. I'm thinking of adding one to my 46g tank. Ryan mentioned that he needed to partition his sump from his refugium so he could add a skimmer. Isn't a refugium just a sump with a sandbed and macroalgae in it? Why would you need to partition it? Also, what size pump do you think I would need?

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Jared Page
Highland, UT
Graphic Designer


Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 8:21am

peiji - I have an in sump skimmer and from what I understand you don't want your skimmer right in your refugium.  Is this correct?  Also, if I end up doing a in sump return pump I don't want it right in my refugium sucking up sand, macroalgae and so on.  I believe you also want to do some baffles after your overflow into the sump to stop bubbling of the water returning into the tank.  Any other ideas anybody?  Check out some of the links given on another post I had about cast vs extruded.  I think it was sarnack that gave some good links to examples of sumps/refugiums.



Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 8:43am

Ryan, sorry about the pm.  I've just purged my inbox.

Here's some sump designs that I like, ymmv:

I like this one because it essentually separates the skimmer water from the refugium water.  I like this idea.  Second choice would be to skim the water before going to the fuge.  I don't like the idea of skimming the water after the fuge.  Also, if I want a big skimmer, which means more water flow through the sump (more water flow then I'd want through the fuge.  I don't think you want the fuge to look like a river do you?

Here are a couple pictures of a sump with a nice bubble zone design.



-------------
Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 8:48am
Oops, I didn't look close enough at that first picture.  I'd overflow the refugium into the pump section.  You may have to fiddle with weir height on the skimmer and fuge inlets (or valves on the pipe from the tank overflow) to get the desired flow through each chamber...any opinions?

-------------
Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 9:05am

I actually like the concepts behind the first one quite well.  Why don't you want to skim after your fuge?  I kind of thought that is what you would want to do?  I'm a little unclear how on the first pic. the refuge overflows to the skimmer portion.  I'm guessing the black valves are the inlet?  I was just thinking in the middle of the plexi to notch out a section for overflow.  This looks cleaner though and probably prevents marco and so on from overflowing.



Posted By: Kahuna
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 9:07am

I've set up a sump/refuge thats pretty simple.  It is a 20 gallon tank. It's size is about 30x12x12.  It is divided into 1/3's by two dividers. The dividers are just a underground filter cut to size. Cheap and already made to width. 

The first section is a deed sand bed and has live rock. I aslo use this section for fragging. It is where the water from the tank enters. I have also placed the intake for my evss skimmer there. 

The middle section is deep sand also. It is where my macroalgae dwells.  I currently have 8 types growing here. There is also 3 mangroves living here.To stop the sand from migrating to the 3rd section here I have a foam piece along the bottom 4 inches of the next divider.

The 3rd section is my return area. I currently run a rio 2500 as my return pump. My skimmer is also is placed in this area. The divider and foam stop 99% of and sand getting into this section. Weekly, I do have to trim algae that has grown past the dividers.

I run the sump/refuge on a reverse daylight schedulehad I had a extra icecap 660 around so I have it lit up by two 36inch VHO's.  This seem to stabilize my morning PH. It was very inexpensive to buy and easy to setup.



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Cell 801 860-7333


Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 9:12am
Kahuna - I like the idea and how simple it is.  How big is your tank?  Wondering on the Rio 2500 - just trying to figure out exactly what I'll need if I go in sump return.  Thanks!  Has anyone just used some cheap power compacts from Home Depot for the refuge?


Posted By: KeoDog
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 9:21am
I use the screw in type that replaces a normal light bulb over my refugium.  It is a Commercial Electric brand.  Its output is 65000k and the package it comes in is blue. I believe it is called a daylight bulb.  I purchased it at Home Depot and it works great.

-------------
Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
300g reef

"A trade by which one gains and the other loses is a fraud."   Ayn Rand


Posted By: Kahuna
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 9:26am

The tank I'm using it on is a 46 bow front.  It was hooked up to my 80 gal. prior to current test of just using deep sand (7inches) and 2 over the back  emperor filters.The rio 2500 is overkill for the 46.  I have used a rio 1400 and 1700 with good results.

I have The pc from Home depot(American Lighting).  It works fine for the macroalgae. I use the VHO's now because of a heighth clearance challange with the sump under my tank and being able to use it for frags. 



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Cell 801 860-7333


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 9:36am

The reason I wouldn't want the skimmer after the fuge is there would be less of a chance of the "bugs" from the fuge getting caught in the skimmer.  The real appeal (to me) of using a refugium is all the mini/macro life abundant in the fuge that works it's way into the main tank.  Any biofiltration would be secondary.  In my ideal world, my refugium would be elevated above the main tank and gravity back, eliminating the return pump.

I like Kahuna's sump.  The skimmer bypasses the 'fuge and it's simple.

hmm, maybe I go overkill on circulation, but I've got a Rio2100 on my 20 gallon tank that I wish I'd bought a 2500 instead.



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Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 9:42am
I get it now.  Do they make it through your return pump though?  My next tank will be designed differently to be able to do an elevated fuge for sure.


Posted By: peiji
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 9:44am
Kahuna. You have the exact tank I have and I'm trying to do a setup right now. I have an overflow and sump and that's it. I would love to see pics of your setup and tank. The light suggestion sounds like a good one too.

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Jared Page
Highland, UT
Graphic Designer


Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 10:37am

My refugia is elevated and I highly recommend that.  Gary Williams has a great tank (second only to John Fletcher  ) that utilizes the elevated refugia.  View some CPR setups and see how they work, if you are really interested.  Also, we will be discussing this during our June meeting (presidency recently planned the next few months, and that list will be provided to the webmaster soon). 

Also, cheap lights like those at Home Depot are fantastic for sumps.  Many people have had great success from them.  You can also get blue bulbs and white bulbs to replace the bulb that comes with them.

Adam



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Come to a meeting, they�re fun!


Posted By: peiji
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 1:14pm
could you be a little more specific about the lights at Home Depot you are referring to? Do they have a specific brand? Are they pcs that come with a ballast? How much are they?


Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 1:42pm
What I have seen brand name American Lighting for like $20 - they are power compacts.  I don't think they need a ballast - straight outlet plug.


Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 2:39pm

Yes the Lights of America lights are what I typically use.  Fixtures are like $30 or $40 for the larger ones.  They wire straight into a regular 120V, no ballast necessary.  They are actually fixtures to put outside on your house.  Somewhat common lights, many people use them on their tanks.  In fact I ran my 35 gal for 5 years with only these lights. 

Anyway, hope this helps

Adam



-------------
Come to a meeting, they�re fun!


Posted By: peiji
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 2:44pm
thanks for the info. One more stupid question. I don't know anything about plumbing. What would I need for the plumbing of the return pump? Just flexible tubing or is PVC better? You know what they say about pictures. Will anyone send me a detailed pic or something that shows all the connections?

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Jared Page
Highland, UT
Graphic Designer


Posted By: Kahuna
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 3:05pm

I just use flexible tubing.  I seem to move things around alot.   I do plan to change to PVC eventually.  I get home Friday night. I'll take photos Sat. and send them then.  What part of the valley are you in.  You are always welcome to come by and check my system out.

 



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Cell 801 860-7333


Posted By: peiji
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 3:10pm
I'm in Orem. Where are you located?

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Jared Page
Highland, UT
Graphic Designer


Posted By: Kahuna
Date Posted: April 24 2003 at 3:58pm
I'm in Sandy.

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Cell 801 860-7333


Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: April 25 2003 at 7:52am

Jon - check out these links for some pretty cool designs.

http://www.melevsreef.com/">http://www.melevsreef.com/

http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/tank/sump_chris.html">http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/tank/sump_chris.html

http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/tank/55sump.html">http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/tank/55sump.html

http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/tank/design.html">http://www.sparklingfloorservice.com/tank/design.html

 



Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: May 07 2003 at 9:38pm

Hey, since you all helped in designing this sump, I'll post a few pictures of the progress here.

Here's the sump just before gluing on the bottom.

 



-------------
Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: May 07 2003 at 9:43pm
Awesome!  It is looking great!


Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: May 08 2003 at 1:16pm
I am wondering if the refugium would be a good place to ban my crabs?  I'm kind of sick of them constantly eating my snails no matter what I do, extra shells, nori and so on.  Would they wipe out a pod population in a refugium though?  Pod growth is part of the reason I want the refugium and don't want to wipe them out with the crabs.


Posted By: peiji
Date Posted: May 08 2003 at 1:32pm
Aren't crabs supposed to keep your main tank clean by eating algae and detritus? It seems like if you didn't want them in your main tank, why have them at all? Maybe I've got the wrong impression about crabs. They don't necessarily provide any other benefits, do they?


Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: May 08 2003 at 2:19pm
I sure don't see them touching much of my algae.  Honestly I really don't!  They very rarely ever leave my dsb.  I just put in probably 25 different sized shells, a piece of nori and then added 25 Mexican Turbos - I kid you not within 2 hours they killed and ate 3 of the turbos and left the nori alone.  I know that the Turbos were fine because I had them in my sump for about a week before moving them to the main tank.  I like watching the crabs but I am wondering more and more of what benefit they really do provide.  Any ideas?


Posted By: GonZo
Date Posted: May 08 2003 at 2:48pm
I put a crab in the sump and he was fine....except he kept using the alge as a ladder to be caught by the pump.

-------------
Cortney (West Jordan)
The joy of discovery is certainly the liveliest that the mind of man can ever feel. - Claude Bernard


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: May 08 2003 at 2:58pm
The other benefit of crabs is they eat all the excess food that settles out when feeding the fish.  Maybe the fish would find and eat it too, not sure as I've always had crabs in my tank.  I'm sure a crab would eat a pod if he could catch it, but I'm not sure he could.  I think a few crabs and snails would be a good addition to a refugium, but I could be wrong *shrug*.

-------------
Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: May 08 2003 at 3:10pm
I guess a crab eating a snail is just one of those things.  I'll guess I'll put up with it.


Posted By: jfinch
Date Posted: May 10 2003 at 12:08pm

Here's the sump full of water, testing for leaks.

No leaks, I'll let it sit for a couple hours then polish the edges.



-------------
Jon

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6y_EzjI_ljbIwf2n5uNzTw" rel="nofollow - What I've been doing...



Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: May 10 2003 at 12:35pm
Looking Awesome!



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