High Phosphates & other Tank Problems
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Topic: High Phosphates & other Tank Problems
Posted By: chk4tix
Subject: High Phosphates & other Tank Problems
Date Posted: December 19 2011 at 7:36pm
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quick version: High p04, increased algae growth, unable to resolve. looking for outside assistance.
*warning long post* For almost two years, I have been battling with my tank. I have lost thousands in coral and livestock. I have almost thrown in the towel many times, but when I think of how much I have invested and how much I really love my tank when everything is “working”, I just can’t bring myself to do it (yet). So I am coming here to post my situation to see if anyone can help me identify what is happening. I need to get an outside eye on this problem because there must be something I am missing. I am going try to be as detailed as possible in order to eliminate the obvious (at least to me) problems. History: I had a 120g tank for about 5 years and I had amazing growth, no real issues at all. Then after moving into my new home and living there a little over a year, my tank still continued to do very well. In my new home, my system consisted of my 120g display, 75g frag tank, and 40g sump all interconnected. Because I had the extra room, I decided to upgrade to a 150g tank. During this upgrade, the only thing that changed was the amount of water (30g more), PVC rock stands, and Utah sand (which I have never used before and wonder if ultimately it is my problem). I set up my new tank and cycled the sand and water. After everything was cycled, a month or so later, I connect the new systems to my current system and let everything equalize. I ran it like this for another week and once everything had leveled out, I transferred all my corals/rock/fish in to the new tank. I kept both the 120g and the 150g up and running for about another week and then disconnected the 120g. All seemed fine until about a month later I had a major tank crash... ( http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39323 - Original post found here March 2010 ) At the time I thought I it was all due to the faulty pH probe, but after replacing that I still continued to run in to problems on and off. A few months later (about 2 weeks after I took pictures for my Tank of the Month Oct 2010) my tank crashed again and I lost almost all my corals/fish again. ( http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43774 - this was just the start ) Tanks: My current system consists of a 150g display, a 75g frag, 46g Anemone/holding tank, and a 75g sump. All of my tanks are connected so I only have to worry about one water mass. Lighting: I run an 8 Bulb ATI Sunpower on the DT, an 8 Bulb TEK on the FT, a 150w mh on the 46g tank. On the sump I run two 120w twisty bulbs. The DT light has dawn/dusk from 9am-9pm and daylight’s are on from 12pm-7pm. The FT light has dawn/dusk from 8pm-5am and daylight’s are on from 9pm-4pm. The 46g is on from 4am-10am. The sump lights are on from 1am-9pm. Equipment: Display: 150g Standard Display Lighting: ATI Sunpower 8x80w Frag Tank: 60”Lx12”Hx24”w Frag Lighting: Tek 8 -54w bulb t5 Sump: 75g standard Sump Lighing 24W Spiral Bulb DIY Skimmer: SRO XP-3000 Water treatment: RO DI Co2 regulator: AquariumPlants.com's Electronic Co2 Regulator Ca Reactor: Georeef 6x18 Kalk Reactor: Georeef Controller: APEX controller w/Vortech controller, 3 ES8, multiple probes, and lunar module. Return Pump: Reeflo Barracuda 4500gmh Power heads: 3 Vortech MP40ES’s UV Sterilizer: 9x Turbo Twist. Current water parameters (as of today): SG 1.026 Ca 420 Alk 7.0 dKh (kept lower because currently carbon dosing) Temp 76-75deg pH 8.15-8.25 p04 .70ppm (down from 1.05ppm) ammonia 0ppm nitrates 0ppm nitrites 0ppm Problem: Continued water quality issues causing fish/coral losses and increased algae growth. I believe that my problems are caused by high p04 which may be leaching from my sand bed. My sand is Utah sand, but I wonder if the sand I collected could be contaminated. I thoroughly washed and cleaned the sand before putting it in the tank but I wonder if it is just "bad sand". Even though my system is one large water mass, there seems to be different ecosystems going on. In my display I have plenty of livestock to keep algae to a minimum, but my SPS do not extent like they do in my Frag tank. Also corals in my Frag tank grow twice as fast as in my display. However, the algae in my Frag tank has taken over and no matter what I do I can not get ahead of the algae. I have tried extra snails, fish, nudi's, but they have all died because they wont touch the algae. I have replaced my ph, orp, and temp sensors just in case they were giving me false readings. I also purchased a larger skimmer to help remove biomass from the water. I have gone extended periods without lights and removed algae by hand on a daily basis, but again no luck. I also purchased a Hanna p04 meter because all my previous tests said I had not p04's and I knew this couldn't be the case with all the algae. From this tester, I have come to the belief that all of my issues may be a result of the high p04 (but i guess it could be something else) I have also removed racks and scrubbed them to remove algae but it just grows back in a matter of weeks. I have replaced all the bulbs in case color shift was causing problems. For the last few months I have begun carbon dosing because I have read that also helps control algae but I do not see the reduction as I have read about. Tank Pictures (as per Mark's request): Display - Current picture: 
Shortly before the crash Oct 2010: 
Frag - Current picture: 
Frag - Before crash Aug 2010: 
------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Replies:
Posted By: Dion Richins
Date Posted: December 19 2011 at 10:14pm
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Did you add sand to the sand you already had? Or use all new sand? ------------- http://www.customaquariumfurniture.com" rel="nofollow - Bad "censored" Cabinets Best quality in the valley! He is one sexy bald guy, even with out a finger!(MAC) |
Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: December 19 2011 at 10:28pm
I used all new sand except for a small amount of old sand from my previous tank to seed it. ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Dion Richins wrote:Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 20 2011 at 4:32pm
Excellent write up and extremely useful before and after pics. Thanks. Sorry, I always have so many questions.  My questions are numbered to help us keep track. That level of PO4 kills snails as you have discovered, but fish don't care much about PO4. 1. What fish have you lost and how did they go? 2. Are there any sand throwing Jawfish or Gobies currently in the display or any lost since setup? In a connected system, it's completely normal for each aquarium to have it's own personality. I don't see much nuisance algae in the display, assuming the Rabbitfish, Tangs and Angelfish are keeping it clean in the absence of snails. The manual algae removal you speak of is from the Frag tank, right? (That's question #4) 5. Is the Refugium growing algae? 6. What is the photoperiod of the Refugium light? 7. How do you feel about removing the highest eggcrate shelf from the frag system? Don't remove it yet, I just wanted you to be thinking about it. The difference in coral growth between the two tanks is expected. The frag tank is well designed, specifically to accelerate coral growth. The weird occurrence of two crashes shortly after setup make me wonder if there was something besides PO4 in the environment that may or may not have come in via the Utah sand. 8. Please describe exactly where the sand was collected. 9. Was it all collected from the surface or did you dig a hole to get sand from a little deeper? 10. Was the sand screened prior to washing? 11. Were there any trash objects found in the sand? 12. Is there any left over sand? If so I would like to see a macro pic of it and suggest we start with tests for strange odor and for PO4. 13. What PVC pipe was used and what cement was used to hold it together? 14. Are there any metal parts in the water purification and delivery system, even just a brass fitting or float valve? 15. Is the RO Membrane the same as before the 170? 16. Did you use any tap water to start up the 170? 17. Was there a change in the source water, like a change in the well that served your community? Each well provides water with slightly different impurities and sometimes an accidental or purposeful additive by the city that is no problem for humans can adversely affect coral and/or fish. Sometimes a city water line break allows dirt, and who knows what else, into the pipes. The effect of some contaminants can last for years. The dirt and contaminants from a repair are not spread out evenly across users, rather it follows the flow and the path of least resistance. As you can see, there are several possibilities. Much of what you have said does seem to point a finger at the sand, but if so, this is unlike any Utah Oolitic Sand I have ever seen. It's like digging in the dirt for clues.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: December 20 2011 at 7:37pm
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Thanks for the response Mark, very good list of questions. My responses are in red. I believe you might have given me a little hint on a possible cause....
1. What fish have you lost and how did they go? Display tank (died within 2-7 days of crash, I assume ammonia or pH spike…not sure): Mystery Wrasse 2 Bluespot Goby Bluehead Wrasse PowderBlue Tang 2 Firefish YellowTailed Damsel Aussie Black Clown CopperBanded Butterfly Pink Diamonda Goby Sand Sifting Goby 2 Royal gama Green Bullseye Manderian Coral Beauty Frag tank (died over time of starvation I believe): 2 yellow tangs Kohl tang Lawnmower blenny 2 yellow tailed damsels 2. Are there any sand throwing Jawfish or Gobies currently in the display or any lost since setup? I lost 2 bluespots, a sand sifting goby in the crash, but I did replace the sand sifting goby and a pink and blue spot goby that both throw sand around. In a connected system, it's completely normal for each aquarium to have it's own personality. I don't see much nuisance algae in the display, assuming the Rabbitfish, Tangs and Angelfish are keeping it clean in the absence of snails. The manual algae removal you speak of is from the Frag tank, right? (That's question #4) Yes, the majority of manual algae removal is in the frag tank, however, I do have to manually remove algae from the overflows. 5. Is the Refugium growing algae? Yes, I was growing cheto but the refug has also become overgrown with hair algae. 6. What is the photoperiod of the Refugium light? It is currently on from 3am-11pm 7. How do you feel about removing the highest eggcrate shelf from the frag system? Don't remove it yet, I just wanted you to be thinking about it. The only issue I have about removing the upper eggcrate is that the left side of it is encrusted by my SPS…but it’s not out of the question. The difference in coral growth between the two tanks is expected. The frag tank is well designed, specifically to accelerate coral growth. The weird occurrence of two crashes shortly after setup make me wonder if there was something besides PO4 in the environment that may or may not have come in via the Utah sand. 8. Please describe exactly where the sand was collected. When we went out it was still wintertime and the roads/sand areas were covered in snow, however, I believe this is where we were. (we would have retrieved if from the south side of the roadway) http://maps.google.com/maps/place?q=40.811779,-112.533667 - Map location 9. Was it all collected from the surface or did you dig a hole to get sand from a little deeper? I dug about 12 down, which was below the frozen grown and then retrieved the sand from there. 10. Was the sand screened prior to washing? It was not screened, but we did wash if for about 5-6 hours before it no longer was producing cloudy water and only kept the sugar sized sand. 11. Were there any trash objects found in the sand? No trash, a few sticks here and there, but nothing larger than a dime in size. 12. Is there any left over sand? If so I would like to see a macro pic of it and suggest we start with tests for strange odor and for PO4. Yes, (I filled the kids sandbox with it as well.) Smells like sand to me Quick p04 test = 0.00 ( I will let the sand stay in the water for another day and then re-test) Picture (straight out of sandbox, not cleaned): 
13. What PVC pipe was used and what cement was used to hold it together? Standard sch 200 1/2 PVC, pieces are not glued together 14. Are there any metal parts in the water purification and delivery system, even just a brass fitting or float valve? No, I learned that lesson the hard way when I set up my first tank. 15. Is the RO Membrane the same as before the 150? * Just to clarify, you do mean the actual RO membrane and not just the filters??? Strange you ask this, I didn’t even realized there was an RO membrane until my topoff stopped working two nights ago. I started to investigate and found that there was very little/no water flow through the large chamber, which apparently holds the RO membrane. Because of the topoff problem, I actually ordered on two nights ago. Either way, I have owned the RO/DI since late 2006, so that is something I will need to check into further. 16. Did you use any tap water to start up the 150? No, used my RO to fill the tank. 17. Was there a change in the source water, like a change in the well that served your community? Each well provides water with slightly different impurities and sometimes an accidental or purposeful additive by the city that is no problem for humans can adversely affect coral and/or fish. Sometimes a city water line break allows dirt, and who knows what else, into the pipes. The effect of some contaminants can last for years. The dirt and contaminants from a repair are not spread out evenly across users, rather it follows the flow and the path of least resistance. I called my city and asked, the person I talked to said there have not been any changes to the water supply for a very long time. so I will have to take their word on this As you can see, there are several possibilities. Much of what you have said does seem to point a finger at the sand, but if so, this is unlike any Utah Oolitic Sand I have ever seen. It's like digging in the dirt for clues ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Posted By: phys
Date Posted: December 21 2011 at 3:17am
| whats a new addition in equipment, rock, etc besides the sand? |
Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: December 21 2011 at 9:51am
the only other new equipement that wasn't on the 120g was the light. however, it was the same type, t5's. ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 21 2011 at 12:32pm
Wonderful answers.  If you don't mind, I have a few more questions. 18. That's the general area but was the sand collected from a dune or mound or was it collected from a low area, possibly lower elevation than the road? This next stuff may be boring but will indicate my extreme passion for and knowledge of the subject. Feel free to skip down to the points of concern. Many hobbyists have googled the sand and then followed the directions here: http://geology.utah.gov/utahgeo/rockmineral/collecting/oolitic.htm - http://geology.utah.gov/utahgeo/rockmineral/collecting/oolitic.htm only to arrive at the place to find this:  This pic looks SSW. This is the exact spot where the website given above directs us. Before the sand dunes were removed by Broken Arrow Salt and moved directly west to build their ponds in the summer of 2003, there was a sign marking the right spot. I had an interesting experience when I arrived in the van that day. I had been there only a month prior so when I arrived to find it all gone, I had an eerie feeling. It was as though I were in a Star Trek Next Generation episode where an entire city had mysteriously vanished off the face of a planet, having been taken by a life form called the Crystalline Entity. Anyway, the ground left after the scraping away of the dunes is too fine, or in other words contains non-Oolitic sand and too much fine particle mud. This would explain why rinsing took so long and why the sand you used may be an extra good source of PO4. This is a pic of uncleaned Oolitic from the dunes that still continue north of that road:  Notice the peculiar round and oblong shape. I don't see that shape as distinctly in the pic of sand from your sandbox. It indeed appears to have more mud, but it may just be the pic. My concerns: Among my concerns about your collecting sand from near the road in the winter, (under snow?) is that it would be difficult for someone unfamiliar with the sand to not only collect the wrong stuff, but to accidentally collect from an area where a petroleum product was spilled. Even years later the chemical residue remains and affects living organisms. Heavy equipment needs to be fueled and breaks down, leaving fuel and hydraulic fluid contaminated ground. This would definitely explain the series of crashes, the persistent nuisance algae and would be the reason that the 170 just never has reached the level of health, growth and beauty of the 120. My next concern is the water purification equipment purchased in 2006. I'm concerned that in the worst case scenario, water with impurities worse than tapwater has been used for several years for top-off and water changes. I'll explain this later after receiving your answers to these questions: 19. What is the TDS of the water from the unit? 20. When was the last time the DI resin/cartridge was replaced? 21. When was the last time the Membrane was replaced? 22. When were the prefilters replaced? The membrane is typically inside a smaller diameter cartridge mounted horizontally above the more easily unscrewed vertical cartridges housing the sediment prefilter, the Activated Carbon(AC) pre-filter and the DI resin/cartridge. A typical fourth vertical cartridge holds more AC as a post filter. Thank you for being so attentive my questions and to the detail of your answers. I believe we are getting close to discovering the root cause of this problem. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: December 21 2011 at 2:10pm
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Continuing on...Thanks again for all of your help 18. That's the general area but was the sand collected from a dune or mound or was it collected from a low area, possibly lower elevation than the road? My concerns:Among my concerns about your collecting sand from near the road in the winter, (under snow?) is that it would be difficult for someone unfamiliar with the sand to not only collect the wrong stuff, but to accidentally collect from an area where a petroleum product was spilled. Even years later the chemical residue remains and affects living organisms. Heavy equipment needs to be fueled and breaks down, leaving fuel and hydraulic fluid contaminated ground. This would definitely explain the series of crashes, the persistent nuisance algae and would be the reason that the 170 just never has reached the level of health, growth and beauty of the 120. All Valid points. The area I collected the sand from was from a low lying area. probably 50 yards from the roadway. Again, it was winter time and probably not the best time to try to collect sand in the first place, but I really wanted to get my tank up and going. I have always wondered if I collected the wrong sand, however, when it is washed and cleaned, it does look a lot like the sand shown in the pictures. (When I get home, I will take a few tank sand shots and add them to this section.) My next concern is the water purification equipment purchased in 2006. I'm concerned that in the worst case scenario, water with impurities worse than tapwater has been used for several years for top-off and water changes. I'll explain this later after receiving your answers to these questions: 19. What is the TDS of the water from the unit? The last time I checked (about two weeks ago) TDS was at 25ppm (my tapwater is at 445ppm. 20. When was the last time the DI resin/cartridge was replaced? The DI resin was changed in late Oct. 21. When was the last time the Membrane was replaced? It has never been changed. I ordered a replacement that arrived today, so I will be replacing this when I get home. 22. When were the prefilters replaced? All other filters for the RO/DI were replaced in late Oct this year ( I get reminders from airwaterice.com to make sure I change them on time) The membrane is typically inside a smaller diameter cartridge mounted horizontally above the more easily unscrewed vertical cartridges housing the sediment prefilter, the Activated Carbon(AC) pre-filter and the DI resin/cartridge. A typical fourth vertical cartridge holds more AC as a post filter.Thank you for being so attentive my questions and to the detail of your answers. I believe we are getting close to discovering the root cause of this problem. ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 21 2011 at 6:34pm
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Well, from what we've discussed here, from what I see in the pics and what you have worked on in the last year, we have eliminated everything else. I'm with you. I believe replacing the sand is going to resolve the issue. I had a problem last year with almost 10 gals of crushed coral I had traded for. Growth was almost zero for 4 months until I finally replaced it with good sand. Some kind of chemical treatment must have been used in the tank it came from, because running Poly Filter helped a lot. I burned through 5 Poly Filter pads @$6 each before admitting it was a PITA and finally replaced the sand. I moved all LR over to one side and replaced half the sand. A month later, with the LR all on the other side I replaced the other half of the sand. Good luck. - On the Refugium Light cycle, did you mean to say that it is ON at night? like from 9PM to 9AM. That's how I would do it. - After the sand is replaced I bet snails will stop dieing and you will be able to eliminate the algae. - The top shelf in the frag tank is acting like a really good Algal Turf Scrubber. After replacing the sand, I'd remove the shelf and do a thorough cleaning of the Refugium, re-starting it with new algae.  ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: December 21 2011 at 7:28pm
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Thanks for the advice Mark, i will have to figure out how I am going to get the sand out but in the mean time, this is my plan of attack.
1. Replace RO membrane 2. do a couple of partial water changes 3. Continue carbon dosing and water testing If I don't see the p04 making a dramatic change I will start pulling out the old sand and I guess at that point I will make the decision if I will put any sand back in or keep it barebottom instead ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 22 2011 at 8:00am
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Please keep us apprised. I would be fascinated to see whether carbon dosing can significantly reduce PO4in this tank. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Ryan Thompson
Date Posted: December 22 2011 at 8:29am
I would say carbon dosing is the only thing helping right now.  If the sand is contaminated, which I believe is the root cause, it is leaching a bunch of P04 into the tank. The carbon dosing is doing what it can but contamination may be too high for the reef to handle. Also, I think 25ppm on the RO is too high. Ideally, we want to 0 TDS but I don't think 10 TDS is a big problem. 25ppm is adding more nutrients to the tank and possibly compounding the problem. Keith, I would pull the sand over a month or so and try bare bottom for a little bit. My next tank will be bare bottom so I can crank up the flow and just suck the detritus out with my weekly water change. I fight sand with every tank. Right now the hair algae for me is gone on the rocks but now stuff is appearing on the sand. My stupid snails and crabs barely touch the sand. How do I fix it? Remove the sand!
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Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: December 22 2011 at 9:26am
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I do plan on pulling the sand, my only concern about leaving it BB are the wrasses and the gobies. There are a few gobies I wouldn't mind catching and selling but I do like my wrasses, so I will need to figure that part out. ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: December 23 2011 at 5:48pm
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Well I started the removal of the old sand and I have come to the realization of how large of a task this is going to be. Within the first ten minutes I had already broken a few corals and accidentally broke my large coral off of the back wall where it had encrusted over the years. I don't know what is more frustrating a tank with water quality problems or destroying everything in the process of trying to make it "better". ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: December 31 2011 at 12:22pm
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Quick update: I removed all sand from my sump and about half of the sand from my display. I tested my p04's in all of my tanks. My display is at .76, my frag tank is .66, and my anemone tank is .63 which is further indication of contaminated sand. My fish don't seem to happy with the sand removal process but hopefully this will resolve my tank problems so I can get back to enjoying the tank again. ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: January 13 2012 at 10:57pm
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I decided to do a little up date on my status. Well in the last few weeks I have slowly removed the sandbed and decided to do a few experiments. I found (as Ryan suggested) that my dosing was the only thing keeping my tank p04 levels in the .70's. I stopped dosing for a period of 2 days and my p04s jumped back up to .89. Once I restarted dosing my p04s slowly came down to around .70. However, at this time I am still unable to get them lower than that. I moved a great deal of my LR down to my sump and move the corals that are still alive to my frag tank to help in the sand removal process. As of today I have removed approx 99% of the sand and do not think I could get out the dusting left unless I drain my tank which I do not plan on doing. I am running carbon and a filter to help water clarity from all my moving of rock and sand. I just did a p04 test and the level sits at .85 so now the real test begins to find out if it was my sand or if my tank is destined for the "for sale" threads. Here is a pic of my tank after all the sand was removed. It's a far cry from what it once was  ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: January 14 2012 at 8:01am
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Do you still have the eggcrate in the frag tank? I have heard that some brands of eggcrate leach PO4. If you have removed all the sand and you still have that high PO4, then I'm afraid it wasn't the sand.
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: January 14 2012 at 8:20am
I do still have the eggcrate in the frag tank, but if that was the cause, I would tend to think that the levels of P04 would be higher in the frag tank then anywhere else. One of the tests I preformed was to systimatically isolate tanks from the overall system, each time i did, there was a consistant increase in the p04 levels in the display but not in the frag or the anemonie tanks. So, I do not beleive the eggcrate is the source. I did expect the higher p04 levels after the sand removal because it stirred up all the dust and debre but if it doesnt drop, then I aggree it wasnt the sand. If it isnt the sand, then my money pit will need to find a new home. *as of this morning p04 is .62 ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: January 14 2012 at 9:48am
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Are you using any type of phosphate removal media like Phosban or RowaPhos?
If you have removed the source of the pO4 (by removing the sandbed) then adding a reactor with pO4 remover should reduce the pO4 level to very close to zero rather quickly, provided you use enough quantity.
If you add the pO4 remover to your regimen and the pO4 does not go down substantially, then my next place to look is in your source water.
Have you ever tested your tap water for pO4? ------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) - * Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 * |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 15 2012 at 7:45pm
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What Bob said. I seem to recall that you already checked the source water, right? And give it some time. If no change after 2 weeks, I would bet you have some LR or even just one piece of LR that could be the culprit. For two years the tank was working with it but for some reason could not handle it after the move. This is an unusually crazy situation, for sure. 
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: January 15 2012 at 8:05pm
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I have tested my water and it has 0 p04s. As far as buying any additional equipment for p04 removal that is out of the question. I have spent way to much money on this system trying to resolve the issue that I am not willing to buy any thing else ( live stock included). I will continue to dose vodka which is used to eliminate p04 and hope that takes care of my problem. I will post an update in a few weeks and I am hopeful that there will be a change for the better that I can report. On a side note, I would have to say I wish I wouldn't have put the "Utah" sand in because it was way to fine of a grain that there was always sand floating around in the water colum. Now that I removed the sand my take water already looks a lot clearer. ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: January 16 2012 at 11:53am
I expect the PO4 level to drop but I don't believe that Carbon Dosing can bring it down close enough to where it should be, plus with Carbon Dosing the PO4 is still recirculating within the system. As bacteria die the PO4 dissolves back into the water. I can understand your frustration but take a moment and take a breath. Since you have come this far, why not go the rest of the way. You are almost there. Time will allow algae harvesting to remove the PO4 or if you want to remove it more quickly, use just a small amount, may be a cup, of Activated Alumina, the lower cost of the two PO4 removal media. Maybe someone here would be happy to donate it, I know I would, if I were there, and with Bridal Veil material as your media "bag", the cost will be almost zero. ------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: March 03 2012 at 11:16am
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Well, I decided to give an update. From my last post, I did end up buying a GFO reactor and media to remove the p04 from my tank. I added the first "batch" of GFO and in about 3 days the P04 dropped to .35, then started to climb back up after about a week. The remainder of my SPS that as attached to my egg-create in the frag tank died, so I decided to pull out the egg-crate from my tank in case it could be that as Bob stated. I then I replaced the media and the p04 dropped to .25, but again after about a week it slowly began to climb again. I used the rest of the media that I had and was only able get it down to .25 again. This media is now spent and I have disconnected the reactor and in 2 days my p04 is back up to .50. Unfortunately it appears that I have lost this battle. I gave myself the ultimatum that if I couldn't get this issue resolved, I would sell what I have and take a break for a little bit and try it again on a smaller level. So I will be listing my livestock, equipment and the few corals I have left over the next while. ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Posted By: troyholl
Date Posted: March 03 2012 at 11:37am
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Have you checked for copper? I had a bad experience a few years ago and discovered copper in my tank. Killed off about everything and took forever to figure out. I got a test kit and sure enough that was the problem. Ended up pulling lots of our sand out and funning a copper removing sponge for a while and all is well today. ------------- Troy Hollingsworth Riverton, Utah 270 Gallon "Custom" Tank |
Posted By: phys
Date Posted: March 03 2012 at 11:50am
| you may have dead mass and stuff in the tank still and you havnt found it. It definitely could be in the sand, under, behind or in the rocks. Its hard to say where its coming from but i have heard people say their utah sand is the issue but thats not everyone, just seems to be a rare issue. I havent had an issue with mine (outside of dealing with phosphates due to some dead fish). Sorry to hear about your probs with the tank. Its a sad day when you decide to throw the towel in but maybe a new start will help. |
Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: March 03 2012 at 12:53pm
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I feel your pain. I went through a similar process back in 2008 (though my tank never looked as good as yours did). I had algea growing like crazy and fought it for months on end. In the end I decided to do what you are doing and get out. I sold off all my fish and some/most of my corals. I removed my refugiums/sand, and took what I had left and put it in a smaller 30 gallon and left it up while trying to sell corals. In the new setup I finally was able to get rid of my algea problems but my corals still didn't grow well even though I thought things should be better. Sometimes I wonder if live rock can go bad? Anyway, In the end before I got out I bought a jbj hqi nano cube and vowed to do better. I set it up with new live rock, and kept pieces of my favorite corals. I did weekly water changes and this tank did awesome and left me with a much better taste in my mouth. I kept that one for 2 years before getting out of the hobby but it was a very rewarding experience. Now I am looking to get back in. Sometimes it takes getting out and starting over. |
Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: March 03 2012 at 12:54pm
I have tested for copper and it did not test positive. (I did have a copper problem in my very first tank (29g nano) that was caused by a brass top off valve)
I don’t see where there could be any "dead mass" in my tank. My rocks were all of the sand bed and there was really no place for anything to build up. When I completely removed the sand, I also cleared out my sump, my frag tank, and my 40g anemone tank to make sure I didn’t miss anything. I guess there could be an unknown rock leaching into the water but there is not really a way to identify it. I am not sure what is causing my problem, but I do know I have run out of ideas... ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Posted By: rfoote
Date Posted: March 03 2012 at 1:11pm
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I've had a handful of tanks over the years, and for the most part all setup and maintained the same. I had one tank that I fought bryopsis continually, regardless what I did to fight it over an 18month process(I honestly tried about everything I did research on and advise given) Nothing helped! All I can chalk it up to was possible silicates from sand(not Utah sand) or something leaching from live rock. I finally got so sick of it, I took the tank down... |
Posted By: Ryan Thompson
Date Posted: March 03 2012 at 3:48pm
Keith! That sucks man! Sorry to hear this but I'm calling dibs on some items. LOL |
Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: May 04 2012 at 11:22am
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I have changed my mind and have decided to give it another go. Even though I have lost 95% of all my SPS and 80% of my LPS, I cannot bring myself to sell of my system just yet. I will be slowly restarting my system from the ground up to see if I can get things back to looking good. I might even start a "build" thread to cover the process. ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Posted By: chk4tix
Date Posted: May 11 2012 at 12:48pm
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. Since I have been redoing my setup, I have added 80lbs of dry rock to my tank and my p04 went up to .38ppm but is down to .17 so I believe that I have already past the peak. I have begun to have some success with my p04 problems. I am currently sitting at .17ppm which i think is pretty good since it was originally above 1.0. I have a few follow up questions now. Because of the vodka dosing I was doing I didn't really have a Refugium set up because all of my Marco just died and the hair algae flourished. I cleaned out the refugium and I added so macro. I want to know if it is prefered to have LR and LS in this area or if it should only be a place for macro. I currently have LS and LR on half of the refugium but am looking for others opinions on how they would do this. Here are some pics to help illustrate what I am doing Full sump pic: leftside is where the tank returns and the skimmer are, the return is in the center, and the refugium is on the right  This is a pic of just the refugium area  This pic Is to show the internal separator which splits the refuguim in half. This area is about 25g  Do I need more or less LR or LS? ------------- Original Crappy Reef Club Member #2 |
Posted By: Akira
Date Posted: May 19 2012 at 1:27am
| ok im rather new and after reading all of this post and your new set up just had 1 question. no fuge and vodka dosing ? maybe not using vodka and running a fuge would be better ? Could u have had a bad vodka with a sort of flavoring in it ? Just a thought as u had covered everything else. |
Posted By: laynframe
Date Posted: May 28 2012 at 2:01pm
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Maybe I didnt see it but what kind of ro system are you running and how old are the filters and membrane? PO4 will piss off your sps, Im dealing with that now. I started using Brightwell Aquatics Xport-po4 remover. This stuff is insane and will reduce your po4 fast, and last for a year! Tyler at Elite-Aquatics can get it for you. You have to reduce your po4 slowly so im adding these cubes slowly. Your turbo twist is too small and I would say pretty useless, how many gph are you flowing through it? You should have minimum of the turbo twist 18, its rated up to 400 gal, but these are over rated a little and I would run the turbo twist 36. Good Luck I thought I would put in my 2 cents. ------------- The time we enjoy wasting isn't wasted time!!!! |