Plumbing my first overflow?
Printed From: Utah Reefs
Category: Specialized Discussion
Forum Name: DIY
Forum Description: Do it Yourself
URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=61406
Printed Date: August 27 2025 at 2:33pm
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Topic: Plumbing my first overflow?
Posted By: speyside712
Subject: Plumbing my first overflow?
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 1:00am
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I am in the process of setting up a new 90 gallon tank with 35 gallon sump. I have set up 2 tanks in the past and am currently running a 55 gallon right now, although I have never used a sump before. I am running into some issues when plumbing the sump. I set up the entire thing using pvc and it looks good, no leaks anywhere and seems to be effective, however... it sounds like a toilet is flushing the entire time due to air rushing down the overflow. Every few seconds large bubbles comes out of the overflow so fast it splashes water all over the underside of the stand. My tank has 1 built in overflow and is drilled with two 1 inch holes cut in the bottom of the glass in the overflow. I used one hole for the overflow drain running straight down, and the other for the return pipe running up inside the overflow box and over the edge of the teeth. At the moment the only ball valve I have is on the return line. Do I need to install one on the overflow pipe as well? What shape should the opening at the top of the overflow drain line be, and will this method of having only 1 overflow line work? At the moment the top of the overflow drain line is shaped like an "h" with a hole drilled in the cap to still allow air but to muffle the sound. Is it better to have a perfect siphon with no air allowed in at all? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks :)
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Replies:
Posted By: Fatman
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 7:01am
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Sounds like you built up a Durso overflow. Throttling back the drain line on a single overflow is a disaster waiting to happen should it get a small clog you'll flood your tank and with a ball valve partially closed in the line you're more likely to catch stuff that will clog it. If you have completed your setup you're likely stuck with the Durso type overflow. If you're not finished setting it up I'd investigate having another hole drilled and setting up a Herbie. You have two drains one that is full siphon and almost noiseless and another as a backup. If you have to use the Durso you can use two 90 degree elbows on the top of the drainline. I'd drill a hole in the side of one of the elbows to prevent the overflow from draining too much into the sump and drill a hole small hole in the top and push down a small line to allow air to escape, that should silence it a bit. It's easier to build than to describe. I have one Durso on my display and a Herbie on the frag tank. You can run up (I'm in South Weber) and see it if you like. Fat ------------- February 4: Winter Banquet at the Living Planet Aquarium Tickets: http://utahreefs.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=36 |
Posted By: ClownFishAddict
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 8:34am
First you need to understand the durso valve and what it does. here is a picture of it. if you notice after the overflow water reaches the inlet of the valve #2 it travels down the drain. if you look at the top of the drain (durso) you will see a nipple. the nipple is what allows airflow down and silences the flushing sound. Remember the height of the durso also contributes to the flushing sound. Note in the picture where that one is and try to match it. Hope This Helps ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=61789&title=ok-here-it-goes-my-redneck-120-rimless-build" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 9:04am
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Hmmm, Thanks for the help guys, I'm still a bit confused though. At the moment, I already have two 90 degree elbows on the top over the overflow, and I have drilled a hole in the cap to provide the nipple you mentioned, and i'm still getting big bubbles rocketing out of the bottom of the overflow. The water level in the overflow chamber fills up to the top until a full siphon starts and then it goes down about 4 inches really fast, then fills up again, starting the cycle over. My set up looks exactly like the durso that ClownFishAddict posted... Fatman, I will be in south ogden tonight, maybe I could stop by and take a look at your set up on my way back home to centerville around 7 or so? I think I've met you and your son before actually at last years frag fest. Didn't you guys win a frag tank?
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Posted By: ClownFishAddict
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 9:07am
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slide about 3-4 inches of air tubing into the hole you drilled. or just call me. 801 413-6652 Brian ------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=61789&title=ok-here-it-goes-my-redneck-120-rimless-build" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 9:12am
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Oh ok I will try out the airline tubing, I didn't think of that. It seems like the size of the hole make quite the difference so I will test that out when I get home today. Should the airline tubing end underneath the water level? And should it plug the hole i drilled completely, or should there be any space around the tubing for extra air to escape? Thanks! I also dont have a cover over the overflow pipe intake at the moment, so its just an open pvc pipe. I imagine a turbo snail would clog that in about 1 day if I left it that way lol. I'll add the attachment in the picture you posted, that looks like the best way I would imagine.
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Posted By: ClownFishAddict
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 9:17am
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Should fit snug and allow air to travel freely down the tubing. it should end about 1/2 inch below water level but you just have to play with it till it stops the gurgling sound.
------------- http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=61789&title=ok-here-it-goes-my-redneck-120-rimless-build" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 9:23am
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OH! i was thinking air would be coming out of this hole, that was getting pulled in by the syphon, i understand now, ok I will try that first thing tonight after work. Thanks again.So now that i have done some research it seems like the best way would have been to use both drilled holes for overflows of different heights and then have the return come up over the back of the tank. Could I use a T adapter to split my 1 overflow? and then put each intake at a different level, regular and emergency? Or would this accomplish nothing, because i couldnt have a full syphon because they are attached...
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Posted By: Fatman
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 10:17am
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No, the purpose of two is as a backup for the second. You're using the same plumbing if you just split it and you will get flooded one day. Best just to leave the Durso or get a third hole drilled. Fat ------------- February 4: Winter Banquet at the Living Planet Aquarium Tickets: http://utahreefs.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=36 |
Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 11:44am
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I can't think of a way where I could get flooded with my current Durso set up. Power failure - overflow stops flowing in about 10 seconds when pump turns off, and the return is high enough that a syphon only takes out about a half inch out of the display.overflow gets clogged - the pump runs out of water within about 30 seconds due to a bubbletrap in the sump, and only a small compartment of water available for the pump to push. This would probably burn out my pump running dry, but at least it wouldnt flood the house. What other problem could happen that would cause a flood fatman?
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Posted By: Bryce
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 12:04pm
"the pump runs out of water within about 30 seconds due to a bubbletrap in the sump, and only a small compartment of water available for the pump to push." - depending on the display tank normal water level, 30 seconds is still a few gallons on the floor/ all over your electrical potentially (i.e. Fire), at least in my system it would be or your dry running pump starts one (not that I have tested that but only way to tell for sure would be to run your pump dry for a few hours which I dont think you want to do). This being said I initially set up my 65g with a durso with a valve on both the drain and return and had the noise. I found that if you throttle back the return flow and the drain flow with the ball valves it will quite it down if you find a proper "balance" but could be bad for your pump depending on the model (some pumps also are adjustable - mine was) but still I ended up going with a "Herbie" set up with two drains, one full siphon, one emergency/skimming and I plumbed the return over the back of the tank. Silent.
I set mine tank up in garage 1st and actually tested every possible failure (other than cracking the tank  ) to be sure all my assumptions about what would happen in case of a power outage/ drain clog, pump failure, skimmer restart after power failure when sump water is much higher, etc were correct.------------- 65g Reef |
Posted By: 1973Ford
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 12:27pm
| When I had that tank I had it setup with a herbie and brought the returns over the back of the tank. |
Posted By: Fatman
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 12:45pm
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I'm thinking of if you were to split a single drain into two to make a Herbie. Part of the Herbie setup is having a ball or gate valve on the drain to tune it to full siphon which makes it quieter, it you use a single drain line split and have a crab lodge in the partially closed drain valve you will have a flood. I have a durso in my display and a ball valve so I can shut if off "just in case". I leave the valve open all the way. When I change my filter socks I pick several crabs and snails out of it. If the valve were closed to tune the drain, I'd have had a flood. I have an appointment with my son at 7:00 tonight, but will be available before or after if you want to stop by and see. ------------- February 4: Winter Banquet at the Living Planet Aquarium Tickets: http://utahreefs.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=36 |
Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 1:48pm
Oh hey are you the guy I bought the tank from? Thanks again! Great deal! I ended up buying all new plumbing. I used only 45 degree elbows on the entire return line because I've heard 90's can restrict the flow too much and possibly generate a leak overtime. I've cleaned the tank and sump out, painted the stand and canopy, switched out the lights for a 250 halide fixture instead of the 150's. Its looking great so far! That skimmer is a beast too, thanks again. |
1973Ford wrote:Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 1:53pm
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I have it set up in my garage now to test everything out so i'm open to any ideas. I have tried plugging the overflow and killing the return pump and neither way causes a flood. I haven't tested my pump dry to see what happens (possible fire?) but i would prefer not to do that, considering it was pretty expensive and that would probably burn it out. Its an out of the water, sump drilled on one end, type design. Fatman i'd like to check out your setup and get some in person advice, that would be awesome. PM sent |
Posted By: 1973Ford
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 1:55pm
| Yeah you bought it from me. Sounds awesome you should do a build thread on it if you need help I can stop by. |
Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 2:01pm
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Cool thanks again. Ideally I probably should have done a herbie like you now that I have researched it a bit, with the overflow(s) coming up over the back of the tank. But I really wanted to be able to back the tank up all the way to the wall so I was hoping I could have both the return and the overflow drain inside the overflow box. Hey random question, which compartment did you have the skimmer in, on the end or in the center? My overflow is coming into the center compartment, so the one on the opposite end from the return pump doesnt get much water movement, i was thinking that should be the refugium? |
Posted By: 1973Ford
Date Posted: January 15 2013 at 2:16pm
| I had my filter sock and skimmer in the first part than the fuge your skimmer should go before the refugium you can text me at 801 510 3265. |
Posted By: laynframe
Date Posted: January 16 2013 at 7:31am
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You can still do a herbie with 2 holes in your overflow. Do one hole as your full syphon and the other as your emergency overflow. Then take your return from your pump up the back of your tank and into the tank. Also if you keep the durso it sounds like its too high in the overflow. I would lower it 3 inches. ------------- The time we enjoy wasting isn't wasted time!!!! |
Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 16 2013 at 9:09am
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Yeah I've considered that. The tank is against a wall that has hallways on both sides of it, so I would really prefer that it was flush against the wall, without any plumbing visable. Because you can see behind the tank when you walk past. This is why I was hoping I could have all the plumbing enclosed inside the overflow box. Are the advantages of a herbie great enough to abandon this hope of having it flat against the wall? Otherwise I think I will lower the intake on the overflow drain as you suggested, and place some airline tubing through a hole drilled in the top of the cap, to lessen the noise and hope that works better.
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Posted By: Shayne
Date Posted: January 16 2013 at 11:03am
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One more thing you can try is to cut the bottom of your drain pipe off so it ends above the sump water line. Then attach a couple (2-3) feet of flexible spa hose to the end. This will cause the water to run out a little slower and there won't be as much splashing noise since the water is slower and air isn't bubbling to the surface. ------------- 21G Reefer Nano |
Posted By: Shayne
Date Posted: January 16 2013 at 11:10am
Here is my ridiculously bad drawing of what I'm talking about. ------------- 21G Reefer Nano |
Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 16 2013 at 11:30am
| Oh thats not a bad idea actually, I bet that would reduce bubbling noise for sure. I'll test though out too |
Posted By: Bryce
Date Posted: January 16 2013 at 11:52am
I have mine as a Herbie and its flat against the wall, you can not see any plumbing. The attached pic shows this, when its up against the wall with the canopy on you see no pipes, in my opinion if you want silent its the only way to go.  ------------- 65g Reef |
Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 16 2013 at 3:35pm
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bryce that one looks great, Maybe i will just start over and do a herbie. The molding does allow the tank to sit about an inch from the wall, plus the stand gives about another inch, so I will have about 2 inches free for the return pipe. However, at the moment I have all my plumbing directly above the sump, i liked the idea that if anything were to drip or leak it would just land back in the water, and I lose this benefit by going behind the tank. It still looks like a good idea though.
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Posted By: Bryce
Date Posted: January 16 2013 at 3:43pm
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As long as you glue well you wont have leaks, if you use threaded pipe for any sections just use this http://www.amazon.com/LA-CO-Plasto-Joint-Plastic-Sealant-Temperature/dp/B004MYFP8C" rel="nofollow - http://www.amazon.com/LA-CO-Plasto-Joint-Plastic-Sealant-Temperature/dp/B004MYFP8C Non-toxic and stays pliable forever meaning it never gets hard/ brittle, WAY better than teflon tape you can unscrew any pipes as its not a glue just a sealant. I glued mine up and let mine run in garage a few days and had no leaks and have not had any leaks with my threaded sections. Also after you glue things up and it had dried you can add a once over swipe of glue to any joints/fittings to be extra sure of no leaks. (Standpipes for main drain and emergeny drain not shown in pic)  ------------- 65g Reef |
Posted By: laynframe
Date Posted: January 16 2013 at 4:20pm
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ive had both overflows and i love the herbie. make sure you use a gate valve and not a ball valve on the drain. i think herbie is worth it! ------------- The time we enjoy wasting isn't wasted time!!!! |
Posted By: Akira
Date Posted: January 17 2013 at 12:55am
| +1 on the gate valve ! you can get them local for about the same price as on line. also just an fyi if your return pump wont return what you siphon with a herbie this is all wasted effort , just a consideration before before you spend time redoing it all. I run a herbie now and used a durso before. Both are good but for flow herbie is it for me. |
Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 17 2013 at 7:17pm
| I think my return should be able to handle it, its a 600 gph, out of water pump (the sump is drilled on one end). with the durso set up I had it toned down considerably, less than half its possible flow. So i'm assuming it should be able to handle the herbie pretty easily. |
Posted By: 1973Ford
Date Posted: January 17 2013 at 7:22pm
| It will I was running it full flow with the herbie. When I had it set up as a durso I couldn't run the pump all the way or it would flood the tank. |
Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 17 2013 at 8:47pm
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ya that makes sense, i'm going to rework the plumbing tonight to change it from the durso I set up to a herbie coming up over the back. Once I get it set up maybe you can stop by if your ever down this way to put in your two cents. I'm always open to advice, especially since you had this same one set up already. In the mean time, here is a picture of the durso I tried first, and the bubble issues I was experiencing.   |
Posted By: Shayne
Date Posted: January 17 2013 at 9:36pm
That's the problem my tubing trick fixes. I had the same issue. I forgot I had a pic of my sump. Here ya go. ------------- 21G Reefer Nano |
Posted By: 1973Ford
Date Posted: January 17 2013 at 10:35pm
| I had the overflows go into a filter sock but I didn't get bubbles like that and I believe the skimmer needs to sit higher in the water. If you do the herbie use the hole you have for the return to do the full siphon and bring it down into the first chamber and put the skimmer there there the second chamber use for a refugium. If that makes sense. |
Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 17 2013 at 11:20pm
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hmmm that looks like a good idea to reduce noise and splashing, i may try that out. I switched my plumbing to the 2 overflow, herbie set up just now. (only took about 20 minutes to switch the plumbing around and glue everything and add the gate valve on the main overflow. Tomorrow when its dry i'll fill it up with fresh water again to test everything and take some new pictures for you guys. Maybe I should move this into a build thread or something haha One other question though. So what should the overflow openings look like on the two overflows. The main one i am pretty sure should just be an open pvc pipe (with a guard standing upright to stop a big snail from clogging the whole thing). But what should the other opening on the emergency overflow look like?
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Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 17 2013 at 11:26pm
Yep that makes perfect sense, thats exactly what I just changed actually. I'll snap a picture tomorrow. So I remember you had the skimmer sitting up a few inches, why does it need to be higher like that?
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Posted By: Bryce
Date Posted: January 17 2013 at 11:26pm
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The emergency should be the height you want the water in the overflow box at and just an open pipe, some people put a 90 elbow on it but its not needed. I have my full syphon drain about 4 to 6 inches lower than the height of my emergency. ------------- 65g Reef |
Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 17 2013 at 11:35pm
| should there be any sort of fitting on top of the emergency drain? |
Posted By: Bryce
Date Posted: January 17 2013 at 11:40pm
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I don't have a fitting, some people put a strainer on it but if there is no way for snails or crabs to get into your overflow box (such as mine) its not needed ------------- 65g Reef |
Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 17 2013 at 11:48pm
| no way in? i take it you have a net or something around it, rather than just the teeth? |
Posted By: Bryce
Date Posted: January 18 2013 at 12:00am
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No, my glass lid covers the top and the teeth are too small for a snall/ crab, maybe a nassarius snail could fit and I also don't have crabs, just big turbos and Trochus snails. ------------- 65g Reef |
Posted By: Bryce
Date Posted: January 18 2013 at 9:36am
This is what I meant by strainer and also a pic of my overflow box, with a lid on no critters can get in and if they did they couldnt clog up a 1" pipe thats always open. That being said a lot of reefers dont run lids. You could make a strainer with a pvc cap and holes drilled in it as well.  ------------- 65g Reef |
Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 18 2013 at 10:17am
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I think I would prefer to have a lid, but I would probably have to custom make it. Otherwise i'ver heard of people finding fish in their sump - wrasse or gobies jump over the overflow teeth, get sucked down the overflow drain, and end up in the sump. That would be bad news for the fish if you had a filter sock on the other end. I think you can buy those strainers at a lot of pet stores, i've seen them at bird world in bountiful before. That would definitely prevent a fish or a big turbo from heading down towards the sump. I noticed a lot of overflow boxes have vents near the bottom as well, what is the point of that, i was thinking the whole point of the overflow was to prevent water from going in fairly quickly when the pump fails. Mine doesn't have any vents on the bottom, am I at any sort of dissadvantage with this setup?
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Posted By: Bryce
Date Posted: January 18 2013 at 10:25am
The holes mid level in that picture are very deciving. There is a "inner wall" behind the slots which creates a 1/2inch space, the height of the "inner wall" is just below the top of the overflow so the water is pulled in from the lower rows of slots/holes then travels up to the top near the water level then spills into the overflow. The design is just so its pulling water from lower spots in the tank and not just the top. If the pump stops its not like its going to drain to those lover slots level as the "inner wall" prevents that. The main tank water will not drain below the very top slots in the overflow and the overflow with drain to the hieght of your main syphon drain. (Be sure to drill anti-siphon holes at the water level where your return pipe enters back into the tank though to prevent back siphon when the pump is stopped).
You can see the "inner wall" in the below pic. The pic/ graphic that ClownFishAddict posted in the 3rd post of this thread also shows how it works and the "inner" wall. ------------- 65g Reef |
Posted By: speyside712
Date Posted: January 19 2013 at 10:30am
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Oh ok that makes perfect sense, thanks for a good explanation. I bought some strainer's today and plan to put one on each of the overflow drains. And with that all my plumbing should be complete today, time to fill it up with freshwater again in the garage and check for leaks.
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