WMAS Discussion Forum : MSM’s Class http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/ Copyright (c) 2006-2013 Web Wiz Forums - All Rights Reserved. Thu, 09 Jul 2026 04:07:51 +0000 Mon, 24 May 2004 01:06:34 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 12.03 360 www.utahreefs.com/forum/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=2542 <![CDATA[WMAS Discussion Forum]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/1by1.gif http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/ <![CDATA[MSM’s Class : Renee, This has been discussed...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25840&title=msms-class#25840 Author: Mark Peterson
Subject: 2542
Posted: May 24 2004 at 1:06am

Renee, This has been discussed plenty on this forum. Please do a search. ]]> Mon, 24 May 2004 01:06:34 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25840&title=msms-class#25840 <![CDATA[MSM’s Class : I think it comes to management...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25816&title=msms-class#25816 Author: RJSorensen
Subject: 2542
Posted: May 23 2004 at 10:00am

I think it comes to management styles Renee, I am not sure that there is
'one' right and thus the others are wrong. I have a 25 watt UV on my fresh
water 180 gallon, I had always planned to use it on my reef tank(s) at
some point. In my mind it would run 24/7 and I would try to kill
everything. I had looked into ozone as well and even bought a skimmer
with a JG port for same. I was trying to make a 'sterile' system. It was all
that I knew, kill everything and then the things I wish to keep will be well .
. . even to the point of using a bare bottom like in my FW fry tanks and
such.

I read a saltwater book and found out about live rock and live sand and
the natural system 'as I understand it.' I could not be farther from where I
thought I would start out. I now wish to have 'pods' and friends, to let the
natural system use up the chemicals that are in abundance, PO4 and
Nitrate for example . . . and export same. A small reverse lighting fuge,
(soon to be a 29) will help even more. A place for pipe fish or sea horses
at some point, food for a Mandarin . . . someday when I convert over my
180 and use the current 55 for a fuge.

I would use the UV as I believe you are going to. On a Q tank always, here
we can be bare bottom and or very shallow, here we only wish to keep the
fish and destroy all bad things . . . and we can spare those good ones that
happen to be there. In a display tank one could use it as one must . . . but
it will weaken the good with the bad . . . disrupt the natural cycle some,
oh over time it can and will recover, but the successive waves of balance
that a system goes through for the first 12 to 18 months may be
extended. It is your tank do as you wish this way. The number of tank
turns x the wattage through it will determine how effective. The can be
very effective on small systems, not so with out changing the 'natural'
balance in a much larger one, IMO.

The live or let die method I see here in some of the posters, I have
adapted, it is the first item of influence from the WHAS in my system(s). I
get the feel that most of the members here are natural systems followers.
On a commercial system UV, Ozone, ORP Controllers and such may be of
use. I think they are a wonderful tool used as needed or on Q systems.
They indiscriminately destroy to much for use in my display systems.
However there may be a time and a place for such Renee, and after
looking over the suggestions and looking at what is best for you . . .
please do that. ]]> Sun, 23 May 2004 10:00:57 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25816&title=msms-class#25816 <![CDATA[MSM’s Class : Pete, Could you tell us some...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25812&title=msms-class#25812 Author: Weimers
Subject: 2542
Posted: May 23 2004 at 8:54am

Pete,

Could you tell us some of the pros and cons of uv sterilizers?  I'm asking because I bought one, but at present I am only planning to use it for a week at a time when we add fish.  I know I'm probably opening myself up to criticism, but that's okay.  I'd like to learn what the pros and cons are, if you're willing to write them.  Please?

]]> Sun, 23 May 2004 08:54:40 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25812&title=msms-class#25812 <![CDATA[MSM’s Class : I have thought of going and and...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25808&title=msms-class#25808 Author: RJSorensen
Subject: 2542
Posted: May 23 2004 at 8:19am

I have thought of going and and have even attempted same . . . but the
distance is just greater than I can seem to muster. I would need Friday
evening classes in order to not suffer the next day too much.]]> Sun, 23 May 2004 08:19:51 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25808&title=msms-class#25808 <![CDATA[MSM’s Class : Still, coming from Randy, there...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25247&title=msms-class#25247 Author: Mark Peterson
Subject: 2542
Posted: May 13 2004 at 11:52am

Still, coming from Randy, there is no way it could not be biased. But that does not mean it's wrong, just his perspective that he needs to have in order to make a living. His perspective is of the value of control, partly because his tanks have all kinds of problems happen because of other people.

I see it like this: Randy has to over-do and over-insure everything just to adequately handle that one rich client that wants [grossly over]feed his tank many times during a party to show how the fish eat or the millionaire that wants to destroy Randy because MSM maintained a tank which destroyed his living room. Does this make sense?

Our tanks have only us to blame (and sometimes the active toddler) if they go bad. Frankly, most people don't use either ozone or UV and have beautiful aquariums. So why let somebody talk you into it when it's really not needed in your situation?

Randy does a good job, knows an awful lot about this hobby and has made a good business out of it. I'm glad to know that some people are actually taking advantage of his eductional tutoring. I really like him.

Now, if anyone takes my comments as negative, then like Randy said, I will have to kill them next time I see them ]]> Thu, 13 May 2004 11:52:32 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25247&title=msms-class#25247 <![CDATA[MSM’s Class : Jon they really did dent push...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25235&title=msms-class#25235 Author: PeteVetrano
Subject: 2542
Posted: May 13 2004 at 9:46am

Jon they really did dent push anything, not like a sales pressure thing. In fact it was quite the opposite. Randy’s position is to be patient and wait. In time you really don’t require either, unless the unexpected occurs. In fact, he emphasized the counterproductive nature of them when compared to the natural approach. They just lined out what the details were of each method, including the natural approach.
The whole thing is sort of like the on going skimmer debate...to skim or not to skim. They just presented the facts and not just their opinions. They cited findings from books and independent research done by others. It was a well rounded discussion and still in my opinion, not biased at all.
I just like knowing I can turn my skimmer and ozone on and off as my tank requires, I like that control to insure the best possible environment.

Pete
]]> Thu, 13 May 2004 09:46:14 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25235&title=msms-class#25235 <![CDATA[MSM’s Class : Pete, I&#039;m just curious, why...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25230&title=msms-class#25230 Author: jfinch
Subject: 2542
Posted: May 13 2004 at 8:58am

Pete, I'm just curious, why do think classes at MSM would be non-biased?

Not that I have anything against MSM or Randy or UV or ozone, but if you are getting information from one source it's always going to be biased, imo.

]]> Thu, 13 May 2004 08:58:33 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25230&title=msms-class#25230 <![CDATA[MSM’s Class : Hey just to update. Those of you...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25223&title=msms-class#25223 Author: PeteVetrano
Subject: 2542
Posted: May 13 2004 at 8:14am

Hey just to update. Those of you who PM'd me and wound up not attending the class missed out. Those of us who went all got a great non biased view of the pros and cons of sterilizers. They, at least IMO, have their place especially when your system is new.
Mark thanks for the insight but I think safe is always better than sorry. Besides I like the whole control thing. I like knowing what my ORP is and knowing that if something bad happens like power failure, two days ago, a pump or fish dieing, I can tank precautionary measures to insure none of my other inhabitants are affected. I do like the "natural" approach but I understand where tree hugging ends and reality begins.

I did in fact ask Randy about your comment regarding the Refugia thing...not quite the same answer but…. Just to warn you he said he has to kill you next time he see’s you, he said you'd understand…
No offence to you of course, but he took the time to find a few old lab reports from the University of Chicago department of Biology dated 1993-1995 on that very subject. Apparently they were doing experiments in the labs on pH stability and reverse daylight. The "refugia" benefit just happened to be a plus, apparently an accidental finding. These systems were much larger than the now adopted "standards" but same basic principle I guess. Anyway the topic went on for quite some time and I learned a lot there too...two classes for the price of one.
Thanks Mark for the catalyst.

Pete
]]> Thu, 13 May 2004 08:14:39 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25223&title=msms-class#25223 <![CDATA[MSM’s Class : Randy knows more about the use...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25179&title=msms-class#25179 Author: Mark Peterson
Subject: 2542
Posted: May 12 2004 at 4:26pm

Randy knows more about the use of Ozone and UV Sterilizers than most of the hobbyists I know. To maintain a large reef tank that he only see once a week or once a month, a serious back up system is needed to handle problems that might arise.

He has also told me that Ozone is much better than UV because it handles a much greater amount of water and it helps control other functions such as ORP, that UV cannot touch.

He and I have discussed this at length and tend to agree that the normal hobbyist that is providing the correct environment most often doesn't need or doesn't want to bother with either method. With the discovery of the benefits of garlic coupled with the use of LS, LR, and a Reverse Daylight Refugium, more fish than ever are surviving the occassional outbreak of ich and other parasites.

If the subject of a RD Refugium comes up and you want to have some fun teasing Randy, tell him that I still claim that he first saw the technique used by me, an ordinary hobbyist, on my tank, at my house in Centerville, on the 1998 WMAS Reef Tour.

]]> Wed, 12 May 2004 16:26:42 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25179&title=msms-class#25179 <![CDATA[MSM’s Class : I was just wondering if anyone...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25177&title=msms-class#25177 Author: PeteVetrano
Subject: 2542
Posted: May 12 2004 at 3:55pm

I was just wondering if anyone was heading up to MSM's class tonight that might want to carpool. I just got their E-mailer and it says its on Ozone and UV. I have been having a little ick outbreak with my tank being new again so I thought a little brushing up on the best preventative measures would be in order. I know there are a few people on this board that are not too fond of MSM but based on my PM's there are more that think differently. I was actually glad to see that. I hope you all realize how good we have it here when compared to others.
Anyway let me know and we'll make it a venture. I am coming from the southeast side and the class goes from 7 till 9ish. I’ll check back as Ill be leaving around 6ish to see who is in.

Pete
]]> Wed, 12 May 2004 15:55:37 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2542&PID=25177&title=msms-class#25177