WMAS Discussion Forum : Nitrates HIgh as Hell

WMAS Discussion Forum : Nitrates HIgh as Hell http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/ Copyright (c) 2006-2013 Web Wiz Forums - All Rights Reserved. Tue, 14 Jul 2026 03:32:07 +0000 Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:41:02 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 12.03 360 www.utahreefs.com/forum/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=55268 <![CDATA[WMAS Discussion Forum]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/1by1.gif http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/ <![CDATA[Nitrates HIgh as Hell : All great advise above.20ppm????...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457764&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457764 Author: Adam Blundell
Subject: 55268
Posted: March 26 2012 at 11:41am

All great advise above.
20ppm???? Don't do anything, it's fixing itself. Just monitor

Adam]]> Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:41:02 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457764&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457764 <![CDATA[Nitrates HIgh as Hell : The "sand" is actually...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457755&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457755 Author: McClure
Subject: 55268
Posted: March 26 2012 at 11:22am

The "sand" is actually black Hawaiian from Caribsea (got clarification from my husband) 125ish pounds of that is on top of a couple inches of Utah Oolitic sand.

Thanks to everybody for the suggestions and to Mark for the extra help in PM.

Today Nitrates are back down to 20.

We will leave the lights on a couple more days and my husband will use the suggestions from Mark on repairing the skimmer while we wait for the new one to come from Elite Aquatics, we will purchase more snails, and we will remove the living seahare. Also will be adding more algae to the sump and already lowered the light in the sump, will start using activated carbon, and will clean up the glass, rock and equipment. We have decided at this time to not remove the sand, but will keep it as an option if things don't improve.

We had planned to add a 180 gallon tank to the existing system, instead we have decided to have two separate systems, in case of emergency.
]]> Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:22:51 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457755&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457755 <![CDATA[Nitrates HIgh as Hell : Just throwing this out as a suggestion... Replace...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457749&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457749 Author: BobC63
Subject: 55268
Posted: March 26 2012 at 10:56am

Just throwing this out as a suggestion...

Replace the sandbed. Keep maybe a cup of the old 'gravelly' sand and replace the entire rest of it with a finer sand, like Carribesea or Utah oolitic.

I really do not like coarse sand in a reef tank. Holds a lot of detritus and IMO could be the source of the sky-high nO3.

Now this would mean basically tearing the tank down and startign over.

A big hassle, I know.

But... your live Rock is obviosuly well-aged and well cured; I would almost treat this like you were moving the tank:

1) Prepare enough new water at least 24 hours ahead of time to do a 100% water change.

2) Fill a rubbermaid tote with some old tank water, add a pump and a heater and this will hold your fish / inverts / corals while you clean the tank

3) A second tote with some water to hold all your live rock while you clean the tank

4) Drain the tank. reserve 1 gallon of 'old' tank water and 1 cup of 'old' sand.

5) Clean everything else. Tank, pumps, lighting, etc. Throw out the rest of the old sand.

6) New sand in (dry - but rinse first with fresh water). Fill halfway with new water. Add in Live rock , cup of old sand, gallon of old water. Fill rest of way with new water and turn on your pumps, heater, etc.

7) And fish, corals inverts back in.

I did it like this when I moved from a 125g to a 225g a few years back.

Other than a little cloudiness first 72 hours (bacterial bloom) everything went great - no loss of any fish, corals, inverts, etc. and I did not even get any spike at all for ammonia / trites / trates...

Then, starting at the 1 month mark, a 10% water change and regular maintenance on the filters, etc.

]]> Mon, 26 Mar 2012 10:56:25 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457749&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457749 <![CDATA[Nitrates HIgh as Hell : McClure wrote:The sand...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457738&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457738 Author: Mark Peterson
Subject: 55268
Posted: March 26 2012 at 10:37am

McClure wrote:

The sand bed is WAY too thick, and is black sand we bought in bags, very course, like gravel... I can't remember the name of it, but there is definitely too much. [Sand was cleaned within the last year when ReefOn moved the tank]

Will removing the rock and sand then cleaning it and putting it back cause a problem for the remaining occupants, do you suggest moving them to our other tank in the meantime? (not sure there is room in the other tank, but maybe.)

From PM:
We test all parameters at least twice weekly and some daily. Nitrates are 5 consistently until today.
The SeaHare did not not die, it is still alive. (we did have one die last week though and I am not sure how long he was there before we found him, more than 5 minutes less than 2 hours.

Thanks for the pics and for the info sent in PM. There is a lot here that could benefit other hobbyists so I'm copying some of the comments made to you earlier in my PM Reply.

The depth of sand/gravel is not a problem IMHO. Large black Hawaiian sand in a nano worked perfectly for me. I placed it on top of a 1/2 inch bed of Utah Oolitic sand which is a way to use less decorative sand to do the same good job of biofiltration.

Removing sand, rinsing and replacing it is a good thing only if the tank is very old (>4 years) or if the sand was never stirred or vacuumed. Yes, stirring the sand occasionally is a good practice. It helps it stay clean and puts detritus into the water so the filter feeders can feast. Vacuuming the top 1/2 inch of the sand is okay, but not necessary.

To keep sand looking clean, I use Sand Sifting Cucumbers. I have two maroon colored ones in a 20 gal that I overfeed. I found some Tiger Tail Cucumbers but already had the others so maybe those will be collected for my next tank.

Sand Sifting Stars should never be used except in special circumstances. They eat all the life in the sand, thus destroying a lot of the biofiltration.

Euro-Reef made very good skimmers. No need for a new one, but Tyler's skimmers are excellent. The reason it's not working, I'll just bet, is that the air intake is clogged. Here is how to unclog it. While it's running, remove the airline from the Venturi air intake. With a thin grabber screw or a drill bit of the right size, ream out the air intake hole. Calcium builds up there which prevents air from being sucked into the venturi.
If that's not it, then it's the Pump. Remove and take it apart. Check for obstructions tangled around the needle wheel. Check to see if the impeller turns freely. The round magnet part of the impeller can swell to where it starts rubbing against the inside walls of the pump housing, sometimes swelling until it cannot turn at all. A new impeller is half the cost of a new pump but it's worth it. It makes the Pump run like new.

Every reef aquarium should run a handful of AC(activated carbon) about 2 weeks/month. There are a whole lot of toxic chemicals produced by all the organisms living in the reef. The only thing that can remove some of those chemicals is AC. Skimming cannot remove them and Algae, as beneficial as it is, cannot eat some of the chemicals. The easiest way to run AC is to buy some Bridal Veil material with small enough mesh to hold the AC (I prefer to use pelleted AC so the mesh size can be larger for more water flow). Place a cup or two of AC in the middle, gather the edges to form a bag and secure loosely with an elastic. Set it next to or draped over the return pump intake screen. The water flowing past the AC will then be cleaned of the "allelopathic" chemicals.

Sea hares can be harmful for a reef tank because when irritated they produce a toxic chemical. Recently I stepped on one that I didn't see. There were dozens in the area as large as my foot. It was hard to avoid because of their camouflage coloration. Anyway, it gave off a maroon colored ink that quickly washed away in the water. Unfortunately, in a reef aquarium, that ink does not wash away. That's one reason why Sea Hares should be used only as a last resort. The one that died last week probably is the reason for the fish deaths. A side effect of the stress caused by the Sea hare death was some Ich that went away as it should when you fed Garlic Oil, but Garlic could not prevent the fish from dieing as a result of Sea Hare poisoning. (AC also removes the Sea Hare toxin before it can cause too much damage.)

Besides the fish deaths, a lot of other organisms, even bacteria, died in this tank. If we could separate and collect all the bacteria from a reef tank, we would have 2-4 cups of just bacteria! Shocked

Yep there is that much.
So bacteria, bugs, worms, fish and who knows what else died in a domino effect because of the ugly Sea Hare that was introduced to control the Hair Algae problem.

A lot of my writings here on the MB (message board) revolve around controlling nuisance Algae. You will see a lot of the discussion in the Reefkeeping Tips linked below in my signature line. That is recommended reading for every hobbyist. The Tips are MB discussions by a whole lot of good hobbyists regarding how to avoid and resolve many reef aquarium situations. I hope you enjoy reading. Smile

The best advice regarding algae control is snails, snails, and snails. About one snail per gallon is a good rule of thumb. When there is a bloom of nusiance algae, 2 or more snails per gallon is often used. When the job is done, so they don't starve, the extra snails can be sold or traded here on the WMAS forum. The three types of herbivorous snails in the proportions I recommend are:
50% Astrea Snails
25% Cerith Snails
25% Hawaiian Strombus and/or Nerite Snails

Unfortunately, Nasarrius Snails are very abundant and cheap but more than a few in a reef tank is a waste. They don't eat algae.
Here is a good link to reef snails which, because it is so good, I just added to the WMAS Reefkeeping Tips: http://reefdup.blogspot.com/2012/01/invertebrates-molluscs-gastropods.html

10-15% monthly water changes is just right.

The tank looks pretty good except for the need to clean off the hair algae. The nice thing about snails is that they do most of the cleaning/maintenance for us. Arthur here in the WMAS (MB name ArthurIV) is the best source of reasonably priced snails and other reef animals that I know of. To top it off, he delivers!

Edited by Mark Peterson - March 26 2012 at 11:15am]]> Mon, 26 Mar 2012 10:37:02 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457738&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457738 <![CDATA[Nitrates HIgh as Hell : Trying to help guide your progress...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457732&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457732 Author: rufessor
Subject: 55268
Posted: March 26 2012 at 10:09am

Trying to help guide your progress here... a new skimmer is great, and it will indeed pull out many things that otherwise would (if left to sit in the tank) lead to nitrogen issues, but a skimmer will do ZERO to lower you current nitrate levels, its is completely unable to remove them, you could put a skimmer on a tank with 1000 as the nitrate level and with nothing else running it would never lower them a single point. Nitrate is a small molecule, skimmers require things to either float/get trapped in the bubbles, or that a compound have some affinity for the water/air interface. Nitrate has neither of these properties.

I agree with what Brad said, the tank just simply looks like it has not been kept on a regular maintenance schedule. I would agree that you need to attend to the substrate, but caution against doing anything real harsh to the whole tank. Vacuum about 1/4 of the tank (or less or whatever you can clean well and not end up lowering the water below an acceptable point that you can refill back) at a time, being very careful to ensure that you put the vacuum into the gravel repetitively at the same spot until it comes out with pretty clear water, then move to the next adjacent spot. DO NOT disturb the gravel without vacuuming it as you will probably release a LOT of stuff that will elevate your levels even more. If you can do the whole tank and ensure that the gravel you vacuumed is CLEAN, your OK... just don't do it half way and mix up the dirt bringing a lot of decay the the surface of the gravel over the whole tank... thats a SURE way to kill everything in the tank fast. If its a semi deep gravel bed that has not been cleaned, I guarantee you have a lot of decayed material in it so it needs to be REMOVED completely, NOT stirred up.

Finally, once your done with all the accessible parts of the gravel, your going to need to deal with what's under the rock...

Finally, get (if you do not have one) a larger turkey baster, and blast the rock with it. If its insanely dirty do a little, wait for the filter to pull the particulates out and then move on... but go slowly if you releasing a ton of stuff. This will take a bit of time to correct, but is certainly correctable and is not even expensive/ a lot of work.

Then you can worry about flow etc... for now deal with the source of the problem which looks to be a lot of excess waste/dirt/debris in the tank. Run cheato, lights on 24/7, change your filter SOCK EVERY night of the day you vacuum, turkey baste or otherwise disturb the tank. Clean pumps, heaters, scrape glass etc etc...

]]> Mon, 26 Mar 2012 10:09:42 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457732&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457732 <![CDATA[Nitrates HIgh as Hell : Just a thought as im still rather...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457695&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457695 Author: Akira
Subject: 55268
Posted: March 26 2012 at 12:02am

Just a thought as im still rather new . When was the last time the pump ,skimmer and pipes were cleaned ? Wouldnt flow also be a concern ? I only clean mine every few months but its amazing how much crap is in them .]]> Mon, 26 Mar 2012 00:02:00 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457695&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457695 <![CDATA[Nitrates HIgh as Hell : The sand bed is WAY too thick,...]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457584&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457584 Author: McClure
Subject: 55268
Posted: March 25 2012 at 3:56pm

The sand bed is WAY too thick, and is black sand we bought in bags, very course, like gravel... I can't remember the name of it, but there is definitely too much.

Will removing the rock and sand then cleaning it and putting it back cause a problem for the remaining occupants, do you suggest moving them to our other tank in the meantime? (not sure there is room in the other tank, but maybe.)
]]> Sun, 25 Mar 2012 15:56:02 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457584&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457584 <![CDATA[Nitrates HIgh as Hell : I can see what Brad is saying....]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457582&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457582 Author: Adam Blundell
Subject: 55268
Posted: March 25 2012 at 3:48pm

I can see what Brad is saying. It just looks like he said, in need of attention. The sand bed (although we don't know what type of sand it is) looks dirty and the tank just looks like it has been sitting there for months. It doesn't have that clean pop to it.

I would really consider removing the rock and sand, cleaning them, and putting them back in. It take a whole day and it is a pain. But many times it helps people to get a "wow look how much better that is" type of progress.

I've "restarted" a few tanks for people and every time we look back and think it was a good move.

Oh, one last thing. Talk to disneymania since I think he did this just a couple months ago.

Adam]]> Sun, 25 Mar 2012 15:48:25 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457582&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457582 <![CDATA[Nitrates HIgh as Hell : Thanks! That is much clearer....]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457580&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457580 Author: McClure
Subject: 55268
Posted: March 25 2012 at 3:45pm

Thanks! That is much clearer. We water change every two or three weeks but only about 15%. The skimmer, I definitely question. We have ordered a really big one from Tyler at Elite Aquatics that will hopefully be ready soon, he was a couple weeks out on orders when I paid and that has probably been less than a week ago. And the pumps DO have algae on them, you are correct.

Thanks to everybody for their suggestions.
]]> Sun, 25 Mar 2012 15:45:23 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457580&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457580 <![CDATA[Nitrates HIgh as Hell : It just looks to me a bit neglected....]]> http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457576&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457576 Author: tileman
Subject: 55268
Posted: March 25 2012 at 3:37pm

It just looks to me a bit neglected. The pumps look to be full of algea as well. With nitrates that high also means that there hasn't been a waterchange in quite awhile.

How is your protein skimmer working. If it does not produce enough for you to clean it every two weeks then its probably not working up to par.

A rock falling, killing a blenny wont produce 100+ nitrates. This is a buildup that takes time.

Just an observation,

]]> Sun, 25 Mar 2012 15:37:58 +0000 http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55268&PID=457576&title=nitrates-high-as-hell#457576