Utah Reefs Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Using macroalgae for nutrient export
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Using macroalgae for nutrient export

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Suzy View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: January 03 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 7377
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Using macroalgae for nutrient export
    Posted: December 07 2007 at 10:54am
 Hi, guys!

  I am hoping to start a discussion about macroalgae. I use it for nutrient export instead of a skimmer. I know some use it along with a skimmer. My needs with my tanks require me to grow a lot of zooplankton. I need the larvae for my fry. I have read in the past that aggressive skimming can remove the tiny microscopic larvae of mysis shrimp, copepods, amphopods and the like.

 So, I use macroalgae to remove just the byproduct of DOC (dissolved organic compounds): the nitrate and phosphate. But, I really don't have the algae in a sump. I do use my sump to store it, but it has a pathetic light so I get more growth in my main display. By having it where I can see it, watch it and see how it reacts to tank conditions, I have a somewhat unique perspective on it's use.

 So, I thought I would start a thread for those who don't see daily what algae does when it is used for nutrient export.

 Any thoughts? Any interest?
Back to Top
Adam Blundell View Drop Down
Presidency
Presidency
Avatar

Joined: June 24 2002
Location: Davis County
Status: Offline
Points: 18526
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adam Blundell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 10:56am
I think algae is a great way to export nutrients.  Especially like you said, when you don't want a skimmer.
 
Plus algae is way cooler than coral... despite what the marketing of stores will tell you.
Adam
Come to a meeting, they’re fun!
Back to Top
hairmonkey View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: September 01 2007
Location: pimpin
Status: Offline
Points: 394
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hairmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 11:00am
i just started a 30g, and i have it in my display. i dont have a skimmer on the tank either. i think it looks cool in the tank. do you just have it floating freely?
"Logic is your friend"
west side salon 250-5314
8370w 3500s magna.
Back to Top
Suzy View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: January 03 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 7377
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 11:39am
No, none are floating. It is a planned aquascaped tank. I am trying to use the algae to increase depth, add interest and focal points, ect. Here is a write up about it:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/aquarium/view?searchterm=None

Adam, knowing what I know now, I wouldn't filter any other way, but as a newbie years ago, I saw many problems with it. In my tank and in others. As a nutrient exporter, sometimes at best it is ineffective and at worst, can cause a fatal tank crash.

 Take the genus Caulerpa. A wonderful exporter of NO3 and PO4, grows extremely fast and looks great. But, I've found if it gets low on nutrients, in my case it is always NO3 or Fe, it spores. When it spores (called going sexual in some circles), it releases nutrients and toxins into the closed system. No tank is biologically capable of neutralizing a large Caulerpa crash, even with a skimmer as big as the one at the Living Planet!

 But, in my tank, I can watch it closely. It does give warning signals before it crashes, so I can add the missing nutrient or harvest some of the alga. Plus, I've found that if I only let each cell grow 10 inches or so, I can pinch it into a few colonies. Only one of the vines will vines will crash.

 So, I think everyone could use Caulerpa safely until their NO3 level is low, then use it as a back up to one of the slower growing algae. I would recommend everyone who needs a fast grower, use Caulerpa but every once in a while go through their sump and make sure it is not just one big crop of one piece. Lots of pieces are best.

  I have found if I take the vine and roll it between my fingers, it breaks the cell wall. Then, it doesn't release Caulerpins (alga sap) into the tank. I also run AC pretty regularily to absorb any caulerpins that might yellow the water.


Back to Top
jeffras View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: September 20 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1819
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeffras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 11:40am
I think Macro is probably one of the best methods for nutrient export.

The pros:

It is selective. It will not consume desirable microscopic organisms
It provides a great environment for pods, etc.
It is easy (at least it grows easily for most people)
It is cheap
It can be used as tang food
It is a natural solution
It comes in many different types and most of them look good in a display
Fish seem to be healthier in tanks with macro (EDIT)

The cons (IMO):

It is not as fast acting as foam fractionating. I believe a good quality skimmer can pull out much more crap from the tank in the same amount of time.
Skimming can pull out larger particles from the water where macro just traps it and waits for you to manually remove it or it to decay in the tank water.
some macro-algeas have the ability to take over a tank if your not careful. (EDIT)
Some Macros can go Asexual and polute tank water. (EDIT)


I'm still thinking but this is a start.

For the record, My sump has been very poor at growing macro. I am not sure why.


Edited by jeffras - December 07 2007 at 3:42pm
Jeff Rasmussen

Back to Top
GARFVolunteer View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: September 28 2004
Location: God's Country
Status: Offline
Points: 763
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GARFVolunteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 12:31pm

Since I set up my 150 and the lovely and gracious Monica set up her 60 we have been using macro algae.  Monica has Caulerpa in her display since she does not have a sump.  I have both Caulerpa and Chaetomorpha in my refugium area.  We do run skimmers on both tanks but neither one really pulls out very much since the growth of the algae has exploded.

One of the really cool parts, we have noticed about both tanks, is there are hundreds of baby snails living within the algae. My guess is that it provides them shelter from the high currents and predetors. We harvest the algae and take it into the last local fish store Boise has every month or so...

Suzy,  I think you need to be on the reef tour some time.  Monica and I both love the images and videos we have seen of your tanks over the last few years...

Thanks,

Scott

President Idaho Marine Aquarium Society
A fair and biased reef hobbyist
"How do you make poor people rich by making rich people poor" Rush Limbaugh on Obama taxes
Back to Top
dkle View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: February 15 2004
Location: Taylorsville
Status: Offline
Points: 1784
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dkle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by jeffras jeffras wrote:

I think Macro is probably one of the best methods for nutrient export.

The pros:

It is selective. It will not consume desirable microscopic organisms
It provides a great environment for pods, etc.
It is easy (at least it grows easily for most people)
It is cheap
It can be used as tang food
It is a natural solution
It comes in many different types and most of them look good in a display

The cons (IMO):

It is not as fast acting as foam fractionating. I believe a good quality skimmer can pull out much more crap from the tank in the same amount of time.
Skimming can pull out larger particles from the water where macro just traps it and waits for you to manually remove it or it to decay in the tank water.


I'm still thinking but this is a start.

For the record, My sump has been very poor at growing macro. I am not sure why.


well-saidThumbs%20Up

I also would like to add that fish always seem to be healthier when there are macro in the system.  On the other hand, there might be chemical warfare between algae and corals.
If you can't bedazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your bs!
Dinhkim Le - Procrastinator extra-ordinare
Back to Top
Mike Savage View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: July 15 2005
Location: Murray
Status: Offline
Points: 19173
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Savage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 1:31pm
Is there any documented chemical warfare between corals and any algae other than Caulerpa?
 
Mike


Back to Top
Suzy View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: January 03 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 7377
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 2:52pm
 The only documentation I have found about chemical warfare between animal and plant species has been on internet forums. I have not found any on research papers. Yet? I myself have not seen it my decade of algae obsession. I have seen physical warfare, though. Some species grow so fast they can hide a coral from the light, thus starving the coral. I would only recommend slow growing species for display tanks with corals.

 Jeff, I wonder if the issue you have with your sump is not the sumps fault! Could it be that you have aggressive skimming and low feeding practices that you have little nutrients for the alga to grow? I have found that some genus spp. go into a dormant stage with extremely low nutrient levels. Or many you just have a slow growing species?
Back to Top
jeffras View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: September 20 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1819
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeffras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by Suzy Suzy wrote:


 Jeff, I wonder if the issue you have with your sump is not the sumps fault! Could it be that you have aggressive skimming and low feeding practices that you have little nutrients for the alga to grow? I have found that some genus spp. go into a dormant stage with extremely low nutrient levels. Or many you just have a slow growing species?


Good Point Suzy.

I only recently started to skim aggressively. I am feeding much more then most on the board. I feed daily (sometimes 2 or 3 times depending on my fish and the type of food). I have tried cheato, grape, and some other long thin leafy type. The cheato seams to sustain but not grow. The leafy stuf has shown  growth but it is minimal. I got a bunch of cheato recently and it seams to be showing better growth. I am sure I have plenty of nutrients because I have som small patches of hair algae that do great. Thumbs%20Up.......Thumbs%20Down
Jeff Rasmussen

Back to Top
Kevin View Drop Down
Paid Member
Paid Member
Avatar

Joined: September 12 2002
Location: Pleasant Grove
Status: Offline
Points: 1044
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 3:34pm
One other Con is some macro-algeas have the ability to take over a tank if your not careful. I had it happen to me.
Back to Top
Suzy View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: January 03 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 7377
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by jeffras jeffras wrote:



 The cheato seams to sustain but not grow.


 I have not found a Chaetomprpha species that I would consider a good alga for nutrient export. IME, these are the slowest growing species on the planet! The typical "spagetti" alga most of us use will grow in high nutrient environments, but suck at growth levels of other genus. And, when it has used up the NO3, it goes totally dormant.

 I think your grape might be a Caulerpa racemosa type, one of the slower growing Caulerpas in my tank. But, the blade could be C prolifera, a faster grower. But, I have found alga to be like house plants: some grow great in some houses, some do not. I think you should try another species! Maybe a Halymenia (not to be confused with Halimeda, a calciumbicarb hog) or a Codium.
Back to Top
Suzy View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: January 03 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 7377
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 3:48pm
 Yes, in a display it can get a bit time consuming to harvest. Although, one of my favorite things is to get a RumNCoke, turn on Comedy Central and prune away! In a dedicated planted tank, having a few fast growers allows me to change up the tank req and see results quick.

 Algae used for nutrient export is better in a sump, unless your sump is one of your displays! Mine tanks are all plumber together so my planted tank is the filter for my reef and FOWLR. So, I can see the interactions between algae species. It has been an interesting ride!
Back to Top
jeffras View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: September 20 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 1819
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeffras Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 3:52pm
You wouldn't happen to have any of those species that you could frag would you? Where is the best place to get them if not?
Jeff Rasmussen

Back to Top
Suzy View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: January 03 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 7377
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 3:56pm
 I have a wonderful Halymenia species, I think. My tangs think it is candy! A great dark red color, medium fast grower, but can't be in a display with any herbivore. It is way too tasty!
Back to Top
Suzy View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: January 03 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 7377
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 3:57pm
 I also have a Codium (again, I think) species, but I am not sure how to frag it. I might need to place a rock near it and then let it grow on to it. It is not C fragile, but a shorter, more compact species.
Back to Top
hairmonkey View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: September 01 2007
Location: pimpin
Status: Offline
Points: 394
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hairmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 7:50pm
[QUOTE=Suzy]No, none are floating. It is a planned aquascaped tank. I am trying to use the algae to increase depth, add interest and focal points, ect.
 
 
very cool looking, i like the look of that tank.


"Logic is your friend"
west side salon 250-5314
8370w 3500s magna.
Back to Top
BobC63 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: January 17 2007
Location: Lehi, UT
Status: Offline
Points: 8964
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BobC63 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 07 2007 at 9:31pm
I think that using the combination of skimming and macro for nutrient export can work out fine if - you don't overskim...
 
In my case I use a skimmer that is considered by most to be "not big enough / good enough" for my water volume (a CSS220 in-sump with 150-ish gallons of water volume)... I also set to skim fairly "dry". Then this 'lightly skimmed' water makes it's way to the chaeto fuge not completely devoid of organic nutrients.
 
As for the chaeto I find mine to be an excellent grower - but it likes alot of light. I use the 65w version of the 27w HD light that many others have. It sits maybe 2" off the water surface, and runs 18 hrs opposing the display light cycle. The chaeto grows so fast I can't trim it back fast enough...
 
BTW, I still have a "Chaeto FS / FT" ad somewhere on the Buy & Sell section Big%20smile
 
Suzy, if I ever make it to a meeting (I've set my sights on the January "fragfest") I will bring you some for you to test out compared to the chaetos you have already tried... I don't know nearly as much about the subject as you; but I can tell you that people who have gotten some of mine have said it looks different than what they usually have seen. It is thinner (like comparing angel hair pasta to regular spaghetti) and a lighter green shade, too.
 
Jeff, I think that in your case you need a more intense light over your fuge; if I remember correctly you were kind of cramped for a space for a light in your stand...maybe you should try one of those "clip on" spotlights ?
 
 
 
- My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -

* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
Back to Top
Suzy View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: January 03 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 7377
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Suzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 08 2007 at 9:09am
Thanks, HairMonkey! I love my planted tank, and having it be the filter for my reef is just a bigger bonus!

Thanks for the offer, Carlso63, that is very generous of you! It might not grow as well in my tank, though. I've found that with the intense competition of all the different species for nutrients, some fair better than others.

 Have you ever looked at your species through a microscope? An interesting aspect of the Chaetomorpha genus is the funky cell structure that is visible with a stronger view. I use it to entertain children who come over, after they finish at the touch tank, of course!

 OK, here is some of the funky stuff I've found about algae over the past few years:

 Marine Algae 101

  Does anyone remember the funky experiments BananaAdam did with cyanobacteria? He and I used to talk here and on RC and found a few interesting things I didn't know before. Adam had a big tank in his greenhouse with great lighting and lots of plants for his filtration. Adam was able to get cyano to bloom in his tank, and then eradicate it by adding NO3! He was actually able to replicate the experiment more than once. I could only do it once because I couldn't get the cyano to come back!

 How it works is:

    Cyanobacteria is able to fix free nitrogen gas, that is produced by our anerobic bacteria in our live rock and DSB. But, it appears to need high phosphate levels. When the closed environment uses up all the nitrate
using anaerobic bacteria, the phosphate builds, causing the perfect environment for cyano to flourish.

  But, by adding nitrate, we tip the scale in favor of the higher algae: Our macroalgae! Macroalgae is much better at competition than cyano, given the nutrients it needs.

 Most alga species have 3 basic nutrient requirements: nitrate, phosphate and iron. These elements are used in different portions, though. Nitrate and phosphate utilization has been studied quite a bit. Our algae uses much more nitrate than phosphate. I have seen a few different papers that show different ratios, but the average is around 14:1, depending on the species. Our food products add both nitrate and phosphate in differing amounts, but in my tanks, I have found that my system consumes the nitrate rather fast. At that point, the alga either spores and dies, or goes dormant. In either case, it is ineffective at removing the building phosphate. It must have available nitrate to consume the phosphate.

 Kinda funky, huh? This is just how it works in my tanks, but my Salifert tests says my NO3 and PO4 is at the lowest part of the scale and my corals have never been happier. Plus, I can feed my fish as much as they need to stay healthy and non aggressive.

 Better living through chemicals? Adding nitrate is way cheap compared to using Rowphos!
Back to Top
Dutch View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
Avatar

Joined: August 10 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 838
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 10 2007 at 1:52am
where's mark? I would've thought he'd be the first in here!
 
Dutch
Honda nut(If you need your Honda worked on give me a PM)

"For the last 10 years of my life I get paid to hurt People, thats what I do, I hurt people" -Jeremy Horn
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.313 seconds.