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Chris Scott 
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 Topic: Nitrate reduction
Posted: December 17 2010 at 1:44pm |
Hi All,
I think I may know the general answer to this question, but I thought I would ask anyways to see what you guys would think in my specific case.
For about the last 3-4 months I can't seem to get my Nitrates down and I often have trace amounts of ammonia. What would be the best way to reduce this in my case? I've had a green acro die off slowly and my zoa's aren't open as much as I hope.
Here are my most recent tank paramenters.
temp 78
salinity 1.025
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20 ppm
Calcium 425
Alk 3.5 meh/l
phosphate 0
mag 1300
You can see some recent tank shots in this thread (scroll down to the bottom of page 1):
http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=43346&KW=&PID=387384#387384
I have a 55g with no sump.
I have a protien skimmer that is on 16 hours a day and a canister filter.
I know I could feed less, but my corals aren't growing very fast so I recently made some homemade food, and I want to feed more. What do you think the best way to remedy this in the long term?
HOB refugium? Any other gadgetry I could use? Keep in mind I do NOT have much space under or around my tank. Less fish (I currently have 10)? More inverts?
I was thinking of getting this and replacing my protien skimmer, but aren't sure. Thanks for your advice?
http://www.marinedepot.com/CPR_AquaFuge_2_Hang_on_Refugium_with_Protein_Skimmer_Hang_On_Refugiums_Sumps-CPR-CR1727-FIRFEB-vi.html
Edited by Chris Scott - December 17 2010 at 1:47pm
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55g Bowfront Corner Reef
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SGH360
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Posted: December 17 2010 at 1:55pm |
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Best way is to do regular water changes. Next best thing is DSB, and Macroalgae growing in your tank. Feeding less, more skimming.You have a bit of high ammonia which turns into nitrite. thats a bit of a problem
Edited by SGH360 - December 17 2010 at 1:56pm
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Davidwillis
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Posted: December 17 2010 at 2:21pm |
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I am using the Hiatt system, and always have 0 nitrates... You could also dose vodka and bacteria (mb7 is what most people seem to be using).
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Shane H
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Posted: December 17 2010 at 2:36pm |
1st question: why do you only run the skimmer for 16 hours a day?
2nd question: how often do you do water changes?
how do you remove detritus?
3rd question: how deep and old is your sandbed
4th question: carbon - how much? how often do you change it out?
5th question: what type of fish do you have?
Edited by Shane H - December 17 2010 at 2:37pm
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MadReefer
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Posted: December 17 2010 at 3:57pm |
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If there is any way you could setup a sump for a refugium, your problem would be easier to solve.
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Chris Scott
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Posted: December 17 2010 at 4:02pm |
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I only run it for 16 hours a day is because its loud! And its in our TV room so between 6-12pm I have it off. It is rated for 120g, so I figured that is OK. I suppose I could have it go 24 hours if that would help.
I try to do minimal water changes because I believe that isn't a great way to reduce nitrates. I mean if I do a 10% water change, that would reduce my 20ppm nitrates down to 18 nitrates...I would rather control nitrates another way...but I guess every bit would help.
What do you mean by detritus? Little garbage particles? I guess the canister filter which I change every 2 weeks.
Sand bed is approximately 3-4 inches deep. It used to be only 2 inches deep. I deepened it about 4 months ago.
I add carbon in my canister filter, and put it in every other time i change it. So basically I run carbon for 2 weeks a month. Not much, just in one of those filter bags about 3"x4" by 1" thick. Should I run carbon more often?
Fish are:
foxface rabbit
2 purple firefish
3 blue cromis
banner cardinal
green spot mandarin
percula clown
yellow tail damsel.
I don't have room for a sump. My setup is on top of my entertainment center.
Thanks!
Edited by Chris Scott - December 17 2010 at 4:03pm
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Luckedout
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Posted: December 17 2010 at 4:34pm |
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When i started with my homemade food I had a good algae bloom and a slight spike in nitrates. I think it's due to the fact that it's really concentrated and feeding what I thought was a "normal" amount was overfeeding the tank and led to the bloom.
Nitrates and ammonia basically indicate that something is decomposing in the tank. If it were my tank I would decrease my feedings to about once or twice a week until the tank is stabilized again. I would also try to improve or increase water flow in the tank. If food isn't staying in the water column it turns into detritus quickly.
Better to have slow growth on the corals for a few weeks than dead corals so I would stop feeding for a few days.
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-Ben
90g Mixed reef
www.body-balancechiropractic.com
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vadryn
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Posted: December 17 2010 at 10:29pm |
To my untrained eye, the tank just looks immature. That looks like vida rock, correct? I don't know how good that is compared to LBTR or other LR, but it doens't have much coraline on it yet. More LR can't hurt. In fact, more LR could mean eventually not needing the skimmer - which sounds desirable in your case. I wouldn't lose the skimmer until your parameters are in check, though.
10 fish seems like a lot for a young tank... but most are quite small species. Definitely cut back on the feeding, even if it is just skipping a day or two days more a week. What are your feeding? A nutrient dense food like NLS means you don't have to feed as much.
If you leave your tank lights on longer, you can encourage more algea growth, which will draw out the nitrates from the system. The corals will apreciate the light also. More soft corals will help.
Do you have snails and hermits? They can help break down the detritus. I'm a fan of a good variety in a cleanup crew. 3-4 different kinds of snails including some that burrow. An Emerald crab is great if you can get the algae growing. Mine's a family favorite.
25x flow seems adequate, especially if you have a very unsettled water surface.
Do you top off with RO water? Your tap water might be contributing to the tank's struggles, though many never have trouble with it. Just a variable to consider.
I would use more Carbon until your parameters come into line. I noticed a difference in my tank when I refreshed the carbon last time.
Again, I still think the tank just needs to mature so time is going to be your best friend. I think small changes here and there will get you right on track.
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 17 2010 at 10:48pm |
Thanks for the information and answers to questions Yes, I believe that HOB Refugium would do a lot for the tank. "Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20 ppm" This is indicating something interesting. Either it's the Nitrogen cycle in intermittent stages or the biofiltration is incomplete. I believe it's the latter. Some questions: How much LR is in the tank currently  Are there any worms in the sand I'm not going to ask about bugs. I know there are none because of the Mandarin.  Have you considered dosing live phytoplankton Alternatively to the HOB fuge, have you considered keeping an in-tank container/bag of protected Macroalgae When was the last time you stirred the sand I was thinking the same as Jake in the next post 
Edited by Mark Peterson - December 18 2010 at 8:32am
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Jake Pehrson
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Posted: December 18 2010 at 12:11am |
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The canister filter is probably the major source of your nitrates. Even cleaning it out every two weeks it remains a nitrate factory.
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bur01014
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Posted: December 18 2010 at 1:45am |
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I noticed in your tank thread link you had a red frilly sponge go bad on ya? Not to take away from your thread, but how long did you have it before it began looking like that? Did you spot feed it any phyto? Reason, I am asking is that I also have one and know they are difficult to keep. I've had mine for a couple months, doesn't appear to have grown, but looks the same. Just thought you may have a tip or two what to look out for?
As far as the nitrates....have you thought about a small HOB fuge? I know I may get flamed for this, but I think a softball size compartment with a ball of chaeto would do wonders. I had a HOB fuge on my 55 gallon....nitrates were always between 20-40, after installing it, they were consistently 0. I also think it is a must if you want to keep your mandarin healthy long-term. Since it is HOB, the pods slide right down, and quite frequently, compared to a typical under tank fuge. You could minimize bulk by retrofitting an old HOB aquaclear filter as a fuge. Google it, they work and don't look too bad.
Just my two cents....
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Chris Scott
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Posted: December 18 2010 at 3:49pm |
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thanks everybody for your suggestions! I think I will ultimately go with a HOB fuge. I almost got one on the board, someone was selling it for $30! Oh well, I'll find one soon.
I think you're right Jake about the canister filter being a nitrate factory. To be honest I haven't been changing it as often recently. And I had never cleaned the in/out tubes. I just cleaned them the other day and they were full of detritus! I think if I keep better maintenance with it that will help also.
I got some Purigen to add to the canister filter. So I'm running a small bag of Purigen and a small bag of carbon in the canister. Hopefully that will get rid of at least the ammonia and reduce the nitrates. I then did a 10% water change. I just tested today and my ammonia is gone. But nitrates still at 20ppm. I'll probably do another water change this weekend and do those more often until I can get it under control naturally.
To answer some of your questions to see if it gives more insight:
- that is vitarock. I'm not sure either about how good it is compared to live rock at nitrate reduction. I don't think I want to add much live rock, I would rather add more sand before I added more rock.
- I just started feeding a homemade food similar to some of the recipe's you see on this board. Lots of fresh seafood (clams, scallops, shrimp) and emerald entree, nori, fuel, mysis, etc... I was feeding every day. I will try to cut it back to maybe 5 days a week maybe.
- I have about 40 snails and 20 hermits of various kinds including 1 emerald. only 1 or 2 sand sifting snails though.
- I sometimes top off with RO...kind of lazy about refilling. When I run out I switch to tap. I probably need to be more regular about it.
- The vitarock is still young, but I see more coralline every day. when it's totally purple, maybe that will help too.
- I do see some worms in the sand at night...not sure what types you're asking about Mark. I haven't added any worms specifically.
- I haven't considered phyto...would that increase bacteria growth and nitrate reduction?
- I would consider adding some chaeto to the display if I could keep it out of my foxface's mouth!
- I have not stirred/cleaned the sand in quite a while. I've heard different thoughts on this. I think not stirring was better to keep those bacteria in the deep sand working hard.
- The sponge slowly turned more brown from red, it wasn't a sudden change. I used to use a turkey baster to feed it directly, but not phyto. I hear they are hard to keep. I think I may give mine away if someone wants to try to revive it.
sorry for the long post! ;)
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 18 2010 at 10:41pm |
I don't think I want to add much live rock, I would rather add more sand before I added more rock. Why the reluctance put some LR back in? If it was good to start with why remove it and take the chance that the biofiltration is not complete?
I was feeding every day. I will try to cut it back to maybe 5 days a week maybe.
That will make a big difference
The vitarock is still young, but I see more coralline every day. when it's totally purple, maybe that will help too.
Any increase in available algae will greatly help
I do see some worms in the sand at night...not sure what types you're asking about Mark. I haven't added any worms specifically.
When I set up a tank, I specifically seek out worms and bugs from other tanks to populate the new tank and give it the most diversity possible. It's the diversity that makes the biofiltration more complete. All the worms and bugs that make their home in or on the sand under rocks are of great benefit to reducing the uneaten food and detritus that would be eaten by bacteria. Each step in reducing the input to the final food for bacteria, the Nitrate, is helpful.
- I haven't considered phyto...would that increase bacteria growth and nitrate reduction?
Phytoplankton reduces N compounds faster than any other algae. It's floating around amid the polluting N compounds. It eats it fast and multiplies exponentially to consume every last morsel of Nitrogen
- I would consider adding some chaeto to the display if I could keep it out of my foxface's mouth!
That's why I suggested an in the tank bag or container where the Chaeto can grow but not be reached by the Foxface. It's not too practical but it's a method I've used before.
- I have not stirred/cleaned the sand in quite a while. I've heard different thoughts on this. I think not stirring was better to keep those bacteria in the deep sand working hard. (Sorry this comment is so long but I feel it is important to explain it fully.) It might be interesting to know what those different thoughts were and by whom. Actually, stirring the sand is useful to keep it from losing it's efficiency. A good storm coming through now and then keeps things refreshed. If the old sand was buried under 2 inches of new sand without stirring it around, a lot of bacteria suffocated and died.
Periodically stirring the sand releases detritus into the water column. This unclogs the sandbed allowing it to breathe. Detritus is organic matter with large amounts of bacteria forming a matrix or in other words, clumps of excellent coral food.  If coral are eating they are growing and filtering the tankwater too.
Misinformed hobbyists sometimes believe that stirring the sandbed releases Sulfur Dioxide or Rotten egg gas. This may be true to a minor extent, especially if that area of the sandbed had inferior water flow over it or had not been stirred forever, but contrary to what they suppose, it is not harmful. Two concepts are notable here; 1) stir the entire reachable area of the top sand layer (0.5"-1.0") in segments/portions often but 2) stir down to the bottom in portions less often. A hand can be used for this operation but a stick is much, much easier.
- The sponge slowly turned more brown from red, it wasn't a sudden change. I used to use a turkey baster to feed it directly, but not phyto. I hear they are hard to keep. I think I may give mine away if someone wants to try to revive it. Sponge love to eat detritus.
Hope this helps.
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Shane H
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Posted: December 19 2010 at 10:20am |
Looks like you're well on you way to solving this issue!
Good luck.
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Chris Scott
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Posted: December 20 2010 at 12:37pm |
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Thanks Mark and others, great advice! I also decided to start carbon dosing with the Reef BioFuel. I'll update my levels soon, hopefully I can get those nasty nitrates down to 0!
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: December 20 2010 at 7:19pm |
That's something I have not been able to use myself yet, so I'm not comfortable suggesting it, but in a situation like yours it may be just the ticket. My opinion is that the sand still needs some attention. Good reefing.
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