Here is the only difference I think is important.....

Perculas are Clownfish and Ocellaris are Not!!!!

despite what Jake will tell you

Adam

Here we go.....

Only perculas are clownfish.  Ocellaris are "false clowns" but people call them clownfish just like they call clarkii and tomoto anemonefish clownfish.  We will briefly talk about this at the meeting, but in general it is just best to call them anemonefish (look for Carl's signature) that way you can sound smart. 

Once again, don't listen to Jake.

Adam

Mark Mark Mark,

I swear that after our 10 years of friendship we must have gone through this before.  Haven't we? 
I'm not suggesting a change in the common names.  We should keep the common names as anemonefishes as they already are. 

So not to make too big of a deal of this (too late) but they don't all swim funny, and clownfish describes the orange and black pattern on the percula.  Then ocellaris where becomming common and it was discovered they are not the same as perculas.  So they were called the false clownfish, since they really aren't clowns. 

Sooooooo, now that I have bored anyone still reading this post I will end by saying please call these fish anemonefishes, that way we can all sound smart.

Adam

Mark Peterson wrote: I find this ""ing around kind of mentally stimulating!

Me too

Adam

Okay here we go again.

Due to Adam insistance that Ocellaris clowns are "False Clowns" they are not.  In some places Ocellaris clowns are called false clowns, but more comonly they refered to as false PERCULAS, not false clowns. 

Any fish in the genus Amphiprion can be called a clownfish, also Premnas biaculeatus can also be called a clownfish.  IMHO

By saying Anemone fish, are you encompassing all fish species that go into anemones (i.e. domino and other damsels)?  I know there are some damsels that will live in anemones.

Like Mark said, these are common names.  Maybe the common name clown fish is only talking about fish that bright colors and white or yellow stripes (i.e. maroon, clarkii, percula, ocellaris, skunk, etc...) and the common name Anemone fish is talking about all fish species that use anemones.

There's a spell check on this forum!!  That's rad!!

crazy-sps wrote: By saying Anemone fish, are you encompassing all fish species that go into anemones (i.e. domino and other damsels)?  I know there are some damsels that will live in anemones. Like Mark said, these are common names.  Maybe the common name clown fish is only talking about fish that bright colors and white or yellow stripes (i.e. maroon, clarkii, percula, ocellaris, skunk, etc...) and the common name Anemone fish is talking about all fish species that use anemones. There's a spell check on this forum!!  That's rad!!

Hey Crazy those are some good questions.  I'll do my best to answer them.  Anemonefishes is a term used to descibe the specific types of damsels that are OBLIGATE SYMBIONTS which are the amphiprion genus and I'll agree with Jake and say it also includes Premnas biaculeatus .  There are other fish that live in anemones, some other damsels and some wrasse in particular, but they are FACULTATIVE SYMBIONTS and do not REQUIRE the anemone to survive. 

Boy this is a lot of terminology junk isn't it. Sorry about that. Anyway, clownfish is a term to describe the percula which is the common anemonefish that everyone is familiar with.  So familiar that anytime anyone (even non aquarium owners) see an anemonefish they say "look clownfish". 

Jake will get on here in just a few minutes to argue with me (because he loves that) and tell you that common names are just that common names and they should change, but he is wrong.  I'll explain that later after he makes his next post.

Adam

Carl,

You do rock.  The bible on common names is in Georgia.  You are great and you sound just like Jake..... just kidding Jake.

Adam

ps- here are couple pictures of some coots (I couldn't get them to upload) are they ducks?

http://www.shoredogs.org/images/birds/coot.jpg - http://www.shoredogs.org/images/birds/coot.jpg
http://www.utep.edu/museum/desertdiary/espanol/coot.jpeg - http://www.utep.edu/museum/desertdiary/espanol/coot.jpeg
http://www.perimeterpoint.com/galleries/birds/coot.jpg - http://www.perimeterpoint.com/galleries/birds/coot.jpg

You say tomato, I say tomahto...

I don't get it.  Are you saying that all amphiprion genus are obligate symbiots?  Does that mean that they require an anemone?

jfinch wrote: Are you saying that all amphiprion genus are obligate symbiots?  Does that mean that they require an anemone?

YES!!!

by definition they are... (good explanation here) http://www.divegallery.com/anemonefish.htm - http://www.divegallery.com/anemonefish.htm

They do in fact require an anemone (in nature that is).

Adam

Ok, I think I got it (I'm a little slow on the uptake). 

Dascyllus sp. (domino, ect) can enter anemones but shouldn't be termed anemonefish?  All Amphriprion sp should be termed anemonefish (or should this also incude genus such as Dascyllus)?  Only the A. percula should be termed a clownfish?

Althought this discussion is a bit erudite, I do enjoy it and others like it.  I still don't know why it matters...

Adam Blundell wrote: YES!!! by definition they are... (good explanation here) http://www.divegallery.com/anemonefish.htm - http://www.divegallery.com/anemonefish.htm They do in fact require an anemone (in nature that is). Adam

1. Who is the author of that article and is he/she concidered a reliable source?

"For more information on the web, there is a terrific site by Dr. Daphne G. Fautin and Dr. Gerald R. Allen, entitled..." is written at the end of the article.  It does not say that these guys are the authors of the article though.

2. Adam, you say that these fish require an anemone to live in the wild, what about captive?  Many of us have kept these fish without an anemone.

Jon- you got it.  Anemonefish does not include Dascyllus.  And you are correct again, only A. percula should be called a clownfish.  Otherwise it would be like us calling all tangs "yellow tangs".... "wow look a regal yellow tang, and look there a powder blue yellow tang.  And what's that, oh my goodness a maroon anemonefish clownfish"  that's just silly

Crazy- you got it as well.  I'm not sure who wrote that article but it follows the terminology of Fautin and Allen.  I just referenced that site since it is short, easy to read, and seems to make sense.  Fautin and Allen are the world's two leading authors on anemonefishes.  They are fantastic.  Possible guest speaker for us next year.   
In the wild they require anemones, obviously in captivity they don't.  This has caused a group of hobbiests who are trying to stop people from buying anemones, because once removed the fish will die.  http://www.garf.org/39/fish/pict.html - http://www.garf.org/39/fish/pict.html  and also http://www.garf.org/trever/anem/anenome.html - http://www.garf.org/trever/anem/anenome.html  The difference is lack of predators in our reef tanks. 

Adam

Adam, healthiness of the fish is not the concern.  Its the fact that the anemonefishes cannot defend themselves without an anemone.

Let�s not let Adam confuse everybody with his scientific �mumbo jumbo�.  If you agree with me go and sign my petition at http://www.stopadam.com/ - www.StopAdam.com

(Just kidding Adam)

Jake Pehrson wrote: Let�s not let Adam confuse everybody with his scientific �mumbo jumbo�.  If you agree with me go and sign my petition at http://www.stopadam.com/ - www.StopAdam.com   (Just kidding Adam)

Your entire post is great.  I like the mumbo jumbo and I even clicked on the link.... knowing you I thought it would be an active page.  Sad to see it isn't

Jake, you are great!

Adam

IMO, scientific reasoning (oxymoron)  aside, ocellaris and perculas are better off generalized as clownfish rather than Nemos. If we follow certain "rules" the term anemonefish would not apply to anything that we keep in captivity since the predatory factor is reduced or eliminated. Additionally, I have come to believe that those like Fautin and Allen, albeit far more knowledgeable on the subject than I, are not the only people with opinions on the matter. The label of clownish, IMO, is more of a term of endearment anyways. It is being used quite widely even among LFS and other suppliers. Besides, there are published books referencing the same. Take a look at

http://www.animal-world.com/encyclo/marine/clowns/clowns.htm - http://www.animal-world.com/encyclo/marine/clowns/clowns.htm  or http://www.outdoorshub.com/Clownfishes_1890087041.html - http://www.outdoorshub.com/Clownfishes_1890087041.html  or http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-4912215-7022525 - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-491 2215-7022525

There are alot of "Dr.'s" of this and that who authored these works. Are their opinions or observations or findings not valid Adam? Huh? Tuff guy?

Do I still rock? I think that I am rather rockish at this point. Game, set, match. IMO... LOL

Carl wrote: Besides, there are published books referencing the same. Take a look at http://www.animal-world.com/encyclo/marine/clowns/clowns.htm - http://www.animal-world.com/encyclo/marine/clowns/clowns.htm  or http://www.outdoorshub.com/Clownfishes_1890087041.html - http://www.outdoorshub.com/Clownfishes_1890087041.html  or http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-4912215-7022525 - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-491 2215-7022525 There are alot of "Dr.'s" of this and that who authored these works. Are there opinions or observations or findings not valid Adam? Huh? Tuff guy? Do I still rock? I think that I am rather rockish at this point. Game, set, match. IMO... LOL

Yes you still rock!  Jake and I have been having this ongoing conversation for about 3 years now.  I'll do my best to answer those last questions (and yes I am biased)...  those other scientists observations and opinions are WRONG.  And I do have an explanation for the books.  This one I have even successfully had Jake agree with me on, the reason people like Wilkerson title their books "Clownfish(es)" is to make money.  People will buy a book called clownfish anyday, but trying selling a book called "Pomacentridae". 

I'm not denying that Clownfish is the general term many people use today, I'm just saying that it is improper and incorrect. 

Adam 

Adam, Adam, Adam.... our fearless leader. I find it interesting that in defense of your theory you would say that the more broad use of a common name is now a marketing tool. Wow.... I am shocked. Well, shocked is a bit strong... maybe blah. Yes, I am blah. Not quite blah blah and especially not blah blah blah... but definately blah.

That being said (whatever THAT is), to each his/her own. You have GOT to check out the clownfish show at Texas State Aquarium in Corpus Christi if you're ever down that way. They have an area where you can sit under the tank and watch the clownfish from under the water. It's neat when the clownfish jump up and then land back in the water from that vantage point. I especially liked it when the clownfish would "stand" on their tails and propel themselves backwards. It's amazing how powerful the clownfish's tail is. They are really neat! They had some anemonefish in the inside display tanks too. They were cool, but they didn't have anemones in with them. I was confused what to call them then.

We were just at ClownLand in San Diego.  My daughter especially liked the clown show there.  My son was partial to the Belugia clowns.  I like the walrus clowns myself...

Come on Adam, come out and play with this post! It was just getting fun! Please?

Jon, you also rock my friend!

Well at Carl's request..... I'm Back!  So now what.  Let me see if there is anything else to say.  I do have a more Euro (or as I think of it "worldly") perspective due to my schooling and colleagues.  And yes, marketing of books makes a difference.... in fact some of the guest speakers we had last year let us in on some of the "tricks" to selling books. 

By the way did you know that dolphins and whales don't have fins?  They have flippers!  I sense another long topic of debate ahead, maybe I should just jump out of these conversations.

Adam

Wait a minute, I know what I should have said. 

 "For all of you out there who love to discuss things, like we are doing here, where are you after the meetings?  You know several of us go out to dinner after the meetings and discuss things just like this.  We actually had one meeting where some of us didn't get home until 8am the next morning!!!!"

Adam

Carl wrote: Some of us work the next morning Adam. Now if you want to do some all nighters, let's get a Friday meeting going! I ain't a scared!

Alright Carl (Adam says while pulling up his sleeves) you've talked the talk, lets see you walk the walk (Adam says with a smirk) the January meeting is on a Friday.... we'll see you after the meeting at dinner (Adam says with a wink).  Feel free to bring your whole posse, my motley crew have plenty of room at the table. 

A-dawg (a.k.a. Adam)

Call it done! I trust that they have plenty of room for my rowdy friends? Ya'll don't mind a little southern biker trash do ya?

As they say on Mtv... It's on!

Well I'll be a blote reets!  (hope it's spelled right ).

Carl,

You mentioned the Texas State Aquarium in Corpus Christi!  I used to live there!  When did/do you visit or live there?  I was there from '92 to '97.  My daughter-in-law in from there and we still got some biker friends there!  All ya'll ain't frum Sout Tejas ar ya?

rs,

Nah, we'se from the south east in the in the Carolinas. But I travel to Texas alot on business and I was just there two weeks ago. It is a great aquarium and I would highly recommend it. The jelly exibit was amazing! I was pretty surprised at the lack of LFS in the CC area. There was one that I visited though and they had a pretty decent setup, their corals were about $10 less than what we generally get 'round these here parts. But, they wanted $6.99/lb for their LR! Anyways, I visited that store and talked with some of the guys there for awhile, good kids and fairly knowledgeable. I would love to check out the reef that is off the coast there though. It's the northern most reef in the world I believe.

Carl wrote: I would love to check out the reef that is off the coast there though. It's the northern most reef in the world I believe.

Most people do not consider it a true reef, but even if it is it is not the northern most, just so you know.  I believe Jeff Hite travels there to collect fish with his brother or uncle or someone like that who has a fishing boat there.

Adam

Carl wrote: Well Mr. Adam, what is the northern most reef then? Is it the northern most in the U.S.?

I hate to say what the northern most is because I'm not actually sure on that.  The reef systems around Japan reach around 40 latitude (I can't find a degree symbol on my keyboard gosh dang it).  Off the top of my head that is what I would guess.  As for the US, once again debatable but I do consider East Florida up to Jacksonville to be a reef.  I don't consider Georgia and the Carolinas to be reefs.  Side note- the islands in the Sargasso Sea are reefs and they are further north of the Carolinas and just off the coast. 

Adam

Kinda funny that this (northern reef) topic popped up here.  In passing, Adam and I had a similar discussion over some pizza a couple weeks back, only I was under the impression that it was off the coast of Alabama, but I couldn't remember the name/location/ect.  Well, the guy I know (catalyst salesman from Houston) who has dived there just made his monthly visit.  It turns out the place is called The Flower Gardens.  They are about 100 miles off the Texas/Louisiana coast and are according to NOAA, the most northern coral reefs in the USA.  Here's NOAAs website for the area:  http://www.sanctuaries.nos.noaa.gov/oms/omsflower/omsflower.html - http://www.sanctuaries.nos.noaa.gov/oms/omsflower/omsflower. html

Carl, is that the area that you heard about in Corpus Cristi?  The recent history of the Flower Gardens is kinda interesting.  They were only "recently" discovered and were kept a "secret" until Shell Oil Exploration started drilling in the area.  The mud from the drilling operation started to kill the reef.  A concerted effort by gulf coast divers and environmentalist got the dilling stopped and the area protected from future drilling.

LOL...........

Or the boat trys to follow the bubbles and drift along with the divers.

Where's adam, or diverdan, when you need him?

They anchor right into the reef.  In some areas you can see long gouges where the anchor has ripped right through the rock.
However, the new thing to do is that many popular diving places have bouys set up tied to the bottom.  Then boats come and they all tether to the bouys.... thus eliminating the need to anchor.

Here is another story.  It is very common for boats to drop off divers and simply drift.  When the diver returns he swims to wherever the boat is.  It is also common for on small boats that when divers surface they blow a horn and the boat comes to pick them up.  I once surfaced, couldn't see the boat, and couldn't see land.  I told my diver partner "well I guess I'll blow the horn, I hope they come for us".  It took a couple minutes but the boat did come pick us back up.  I was quite relieved to say the least.

Adam