Mark, did we ever have a geologist do a study on the composition of these rocks? I use these in my aquarium quite heavily and everything is thriving. Still we can settle all the debate on weather or not it is good for the reef once and for all by doing a scientific analysis.

Asad

LOL - So i'm assuming there are no great (low priced) live rock suppliers within road trip driving distance (600-700 miles)?  If I could find someplace to sell it cheap, i wouldnt mind taking a road trip.  Thats why i was thinking southern cal.  However, the arguments for the aragonite are compelling, i just want to wait untill april to be able to collect it.

Tim

When I started my tank I went in to the Aquarium and told them that I could get LR off the internet for 3.50lb and they matched the price, so I bought 100lbs of it and I picked it out

Just a thought for starting out aside from ordering off of the internet. There are several LFS around that will give you bulk discounts. It may not get down to internet deals, but then again you can hand pick the rocks instead of crossing your fingers. It was posted earlier that The Aquarium in Sandy will do this and I know from experience that Aquatic Dreams in Ogden will too.

Using Utah rock for base and topping off with LR I paid a total of about $140 to rock my 125-gal tank. Food for thought.

Somebody on Ebay is offering some beautiful utah lace rock for real cheap.  This one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2373579671&category=20755 - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=23735 79671&category=20755

is 17 lbs and is going for $9.99.  Its a neat piece of rock and the guy would probably let somebody pick it up.

Lace rock it typically not seen as reef safe rock.  I would probably avoid that rock.  Looking at those pics, it doesn't look good to me.

Adam

Aquatic Dreams usually gets shipments on Tuesday and/or Thursday. They keep a low amount of LR on-hand, so if you need some in they can order it for you. Recognize that they are still learning and growing the market there. So, if there is something that you need and they don't have it, ask.

timothyuhl wrote: Are there any other conditions i didnt list that are required for joining?  Scoliosis checks?  parvo vaccinations?

A love for the Utes and a frag of green star polyps. 

Adam

wait a minute, I take that back, those aren't requirements to join the club, just to be in the "in" crowd

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but my understanding is that Real Florida Rock is protected from harvesting and the stuff that is harvested is basically the same type of stuff as Utah Rock that is quarried from dry locations and tossed in the ocean and left for several years to become "live".  (Was that a run on sentence or what?)  Is this true or am I up in the night?

I believe there was a post from Mark Peterson claiming that the utah aragonite was part of a reef on Lake Bonneville, an inland ocean existing thousands of years ago.  Though, maybe he didnt necessarilly use the word reef.  In any case, its very plausible that the utah aragonite is of an oceanic origin, and of the same type as the cultured Florida live rock.  I'm leaning toward the direction that if the florida live rock is good quality, the utah rock (aside from the fact that its not live already, as the florida rock is) is just as good, or extremely comporable.  Evidently the monetary savings are worth it, and since there are those that have had the rock in their systems for above a year im starting to feel its relatively safe.  (If something were going to happen, it probably would have happened within a year, correct).

As i've noticed, utah rock is one of the more hotly discussed topics the message board has yet seen.  It never fails to trigger a long string of conversation.

I AM GOING TO HAVE TO CUT OFF MY FINGERS TO NOT JOIN IN THIS DISCUSSION!

But since Mark and I have already kicked the crap out of each other regarding this stuff, I won't get into specifics.  I do recommend that everyone read the six or so pages that Mark and I debated this topic.  I posted a letter from Rick Greenfield of CaribSea and some other interesting facts about it.  Make up your own mind, its your tank.  All I am trying to do is educate.

Good luck and may the force be with you!

Marcus wrote: I posted a letter from Rick Greenfield of CaribSea and some other interesting facts about it.  Make up your own mind, its your tank.

I'm not very inclined to go by anything a representative from CaribSea has to say.  While I'm sure the scientific data given may be correct their view is going to be skewed (there in business to sell their product and make $$$, not tell everyone in UT to go out and get free sand and rock).  I would like to know how many people on this board have spoken to LFS about Utah rock and received a positive response.  I know that I have spoken to them and have yet to receive one.  I don't attribute this to the fact that they are the experts and I shouldn't buy it.  I attribute it to the fact that if I was in their position and running a business I would say the exact same thing.

Marcus, you are more than entitled to your opinion and the great thing about this forum is that you can share it. However, I also am a believer in the "Don't knock it until you try it" theory as well. If hobbyists had not ever tried new, innovative approaches, we would all have the sterile FO tanks with the bleached out coral and an air pump making bubbles. I can tell you that from my experience, I have experienced nothing but good things using Utah Original stuff. As I said, Mark's input saved me hundreds of dollars. Was the money the biggest selling point? No, I could afford to do all LR, but why? If you have a history on your findings and have proof that it is bad juju to use the Utah Original method, please edumacate me. Otherwise, consider the years of real life experiences by your fellow WMASers.

As I have said before (and you agreed) scientists have their data and many times they will conflict directly with others in their profession or with the vast amount true experiences of others. This hobby is still too new for everything to be cut and dry. One cannot believe everything that they read. Experience speaks volumes.

IMO

Different people have different tolerances to risk.  There is inherently more risk involved in using something formed by geology (utah rock) then by using something formed by biology (live rock).  I don't think someone has to actually try something before forming an opinion or making a decision.  And I think the only reason to use utah rock is cost savings.  You get zero biology on utah rock.  I think biodiversity is an important (and not fully understood) aspect of reefkeeping.  The more live rock the better, imo.

If you think I'm bashing utah rock, I'm not.  It's really your decision.  I've used the stuff, without any problems as far as I can tell.  I just think sometimes people hear about it, get all excited, get some and throw it into their tanks without fully thinking it over.  An informed desision is a good desision, whatever that desision might be.

OK - so here is my 2 cents.

I ended up with most of the liverock (165 lbs) from Joe and Cindy's tank - to put into my new 210. They had a mix of three types of stuff. Some Fiji, some Utah rock, and some aragrete (?) - man made rock. All these pieces have been running in their system for no less then seven years, so all are well seaded with life.

When I look at the rock - and the coraline algea on it - it goes as follows: my rock from my old tank has the most, then J&C's Fiji rock, then the Utah rock, then the man made rock.

Now - you would think that after seven years - this should have equaled out?

Anyway, it all looks good in the tank, and I am sure that it does it's work, so I am happy so far.

Diverdan wrote: Kirklan, That's an interesting thought about Seabase. The problem is that it is basically a big fish tank, the only things in it are what has been put there. I would estimate the biodiversity to be small. There is no coraline algae, no corals, no nothing except algae and fish (lots of really cool fish!). I have tried to get some caulerpa to grow out there to possibly help with the nutrient uptake with no success. Fish do well in the water but not much else. The green alage is king there.... Rich

I thought this may be the case.  We must live too far from the equator or something.  Have you ever tried creating a small pool fed by your main diving locations and puting some live rock in it?  If yes, what happened?  If no, it may be an interesting experiment. 

Carl wrote: jfinch wrote: There is inherently more risk involved in using something formed by geology (utah rock) then by using something formed by biology (live rock).  If the Utah Rock is formed by geology, the how do you explain the sea snail shells embedded into mine??????  How does the existance of shells excude a geological origin?  I see a large inland sea slowly evaporating to the point that CaCO3 starts to precipiate forming a layer of aragonite on the sea bed.  I don't know if that is in fact what happened, but it makes sense to me.  If that's the case, then to me it's very likely to also contain some of the other elements floating around in that water too.  Anyone know how this layer of rock was formed? You get zero biology on utah rock.   But Jon, how long does it take bacteria to populate a substrate? Especially if a strain or colony is well seeded like a 50/50 mix? Uuuhhh.... I expected better from you my engineering friend. Dang petroleum guys.  Covered in that other thread.  If it wasn't for us petroleum guys you wouldn't have to spend so much time in mideast . If you think I'm bashing utah rock, I'm not.  play both sides of the fence much?   You sayin' I swing both ways

Truly, my point in all this is just to say, imo, there are some risks associated with this practice.  Are you all saying there is not risk involved?

jfinch wrote: Truly, my point in all this is just to say, imo, there are some risks associated with this practice.  Are you all saying there is not risk involved?

Jon, not at all. HOWEVER, not enough fact has been provided so far to justify so many casting it off as being dangerous. It's theory that thus far has been disproven many times over by factual, real world experiences. I hate lemming theories especially when strictly hypothetical. But hey, to each his own... which is really what I am saying.

One comment, probably to JFinch and maybe to Carl, and of course I know Mark and Marcus.  I don't really think there are risks to Utah rock, and I don't think there downsides to using it.  There are just aren't good sides either.  My overall take is that is completely neutral and is a non issue.  Like saying should my tank be 1/2" acrylic or would 3/4" acrylic be better for the corals?".  That wouldn't make any sense as it wouldn't matter to the coral.  That is my take on the sand and rock, nothing good about, nothing bad about it.  

See what I'm saying?  Just the way I'm starting to see it.

Adam

Adam Blundell wrote: There are just aren't good sides either.

Fair enough Adam, but may I point out one "good side" that is the basis for many people to consider it... $! And in some cases of larger systems, $$$ or even $$$$!

Carl wrote: jfinch wrote: Truly, my point in all this is just to say, imo, there are some risks associated with this practice.  Are you all saying there is not risk involved? Jon, not at all. HOWEVER, not enough fact has been provided so far to justify so many casting it off as being dangerous. It's theory that thus far has been disproven many times over by factual, real world experiences. I hate lemming theories especially when strictly hypothetical. But hey, to each his own... which is really what I am saying.

I seem to recall Asad getting a bad piece of utah rock in his tank.

Here's a recopy of his post:

Hi all,

I was one of those people that went out almost a year ago and collected quite a bit of rock. Here is my experience with them. I will let you make your own judgements as to what you think.

I started a new 125gal (Upgrade from a 50Gal) about 8months ago and decided to go with this rock I collected from aragonite as base rock. Well this rock is still in my trank and doing great. However, I also decided ( about 5 months in to the tank setup) to put a bunch of it in the refugium. A month after that, I statred to notice that my corals were not loooking too good. this included, lathargic looking xenia and other softies( not pulsing, and mine always pulse like crazy) polyp extension was half what it used to be and my snails started to die. I did the usual tests Nitrates, Ph, Salinity, temp etc. etc. All came out fine (my Ph might have been little bit on the high end ~8.5) but, I dont think this was causing the problem. I did lots amd lots of water changes and the tank would do good for a week or so but then show the same symptoms again. I was at a loss as to what the problem was.

Then one day I took it to a LFS and had them do the tests. They did all tests and they came out normal just like at home. However, I asked them if they can do a copper test as well. And lo and behold, according to the test (repeated several times) I had trace copper in the water (cant remember what the exact reading was but the test stated that that concentration could be enough to kill inverts). Now i use an RO/DI unit that has relatively new (4month) old filters and a yeay old membrane that I flush regularly so I ruled out this as a possible culprit.

Then I retraced my steps and reached the conclusion that It all started right as I put rock into my refugium. I then went in and carefully examined it. Some of the pieces in there showed quite a bit of life and some had a pinkish dusting of coraline. I noticed one small piece of rock that had more of a bluish green patchy coloration and stood out from the rest. This color reminded me of the bluish dusting you sometimes get on the outside of metal pipes in high humidity area like restrooms etc. I took all of the aragonite rock out of the refugium including that particular small piece. I examined the piece under a magnifying glass. It looked like the bluish green coloration was actually embedded in the rock and not growing on it like coraline would. For the next few days I did a 40gallon water change every day. The tank recovered fully within a week and everyting looks happy. I put all the rock minus the bluish green piece back in the refugium after about 3 weeks and have had no problems ever since. Now the question is, did I end up putting a piece that had copper embedded in it ( it took it a little over a month to get toxic). After all we all live next to the largest open pit copper mine in the world!

All the other pieces that i have used (about half of the live rock I have) was collected from aragonite and it has absolutely no problems. My tank is doing fine now and I always keep and eye out for rock that does not "look right". I have not seen another one like the one I removed. I still have the rock with me and I would love to have a chemist or geologist look at it and give me an answer.

Well that was my experience. Sorry for the long post. Hopefully It will help someone out in the future.

BTW I still use the same RO/DI unit and all is well.

--Asad

This is going right down the same path as the last thread did back in April.  Do we really want it to go there?  I am not going to sway from my opinions and neither are any of you.  That's great!

AGAIN I WILL STATE, I am not trying to stear anyone away from using Utah rock.  Please understand that.  I just want everyone to make an informed decision after hearing all the info.

As for the "don't knock it until you've tried it," theme.  Well, if I do research and make an educated decision, then why should I try it? 

timothyuhl wrote: I personally find SeaBase fascinating.  The only thing better than an aquarium full of neat fish, is a big damn aquarium full of neat fish you can swim with.  I just wish the visibility was better.

I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with this.  I think you said what everyone thinks about this.

Adam 

<--- is DONE with the rock discussion. My only final point is that there should be room in this hobby for alot of learning and experimentation as well as open views on these types of subjects. If open forum discussions start to get personal, as this one seems to have, they then become worthless with nothing left to learn from, which is unfortunate.

Marcus, I would love to see the date on the Utah Rock and sand, especially since I have so much of it in my system. A copy of the findings would be great so that I can educate myself further, there was nothing factual found on the internet. Thanks in advance. My email address is mailto:[email protected] - [email protected] .

Carl, give me a call and we'll have a chat.

801-255-6899 (h)
801-898-6899 (c)

I would argue that anytime you put anything in your tank you are at risk a little.

New fish, rock, substrate, heaters, ornaments, Live Rock, etc.

Some may have a larger risk then others.

AGAIN I WILL STATE, I am not trying to stear anyone away from using Utah rock.� Please understand that.� I just want everyone to make an informed decision after hearing all the info.

Tom,

Very well said.  I think everyone agrees with you... you just worded it better than the rest of us.

Adam