HEELLP! I NEED A HOSPITAL TNK
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Topic: HEELLP! I NEED A HOSPITAL TNK
Posted By: patrick
Subject: HEELLP! I NEED A HOSPITAL TNK
Date Posted: December 07 2011 at 7:27am
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Does anyone have a hospital tank setup I can borrow?? I have ich and i'm losing the battle despite herbal treatment etc. I need to get these fish out today and treat! I will make it worth your while. Please call 801-755-3546. I will come get it and clean it etc. Thanks, Patrick ( I would probably need a 20 gallon or so)
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Replies:
Posted By: hydro phoenix
Date Posted: December 07 2011 at 7:41am
I have a 10 gallon qt tank. I live down town.
------------- recent absurdity..Unicorns have rabies
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Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: December 07 2011 at 8:30am
I keep a qt tank running in my basement just for things like this. You're welcome to bring the fish over.
Adam
------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun!
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Posted By: patrick
Date Posted: December 07 2011 at 8:39am
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Okay guys THANK YOU!!! I will call you soon as I get a minute. You are awesome.
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 07 2011 at 9:30am
Sorry that you are having problems. After the current crisis abates, please feel free to describe the tank and it's setup. Include pics too, and we will help you modify some things that will practically eliminate any future trouble with this parasite.
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: ch3tt
Date Posted: December 07 2011 at 11:32am
i've had awful luck with herbal ich treatments. its a load of crap if you ask me..
------------- Red Sea Reefer 625 XXL
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Posted By: rufessor
Date Posted: December 07 2011 at 3:34pm
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I think there is a fairly significant literature (actually published) that illustrates that the effective concentration of garlic needed to achieve anti parasitic/bacterial effects are so high that you would actually need to inject a concentrated oil into the fish (this has been done). Ich is hard because it has a free swimming stage that can live in the absence of a fish for something like 30 days.... so if you treat with garlic etc and the fish eat better and appear to do well and then it comes back again, a common problem. If your really going to beat this you probably need to keep the fish out of the infected tank for quite some time (unless you treat the tank... which I doubt you will do- i.e. kill all your corals). Then when the free living stage is dead for the parasite your free to add them back. Salt water ICH is NOT THE SAME PARASITE as fresh water ich. The honest recommendations from the experts is to remove ALL fish, treat, wait and then put them back. Once your aquarium is ICH free its never going to come back- EVER. Unless you add it by putting something back in. Salt water ich is not floating around in the air.
------------- Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -A.E. 57 Gallon RImless build in progress check the thread before if becomes boring and just full of nice pictures of colorful coral!
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Posted By: patrick
Date Posted: December 07 2011 at 3:56pm
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well, we are going to try ozone....... thanks to all for your thoughts. keep your FINgers crossed I will post the results.
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Posted By: patrick
Date Posted: December 07 2011 at 4:04pm
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p.s. I agree, herbal supplement is a load of crap. And thanx for the info rufessor.
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 08 2011 at 2:35am
Did you remove the fish to a Hospital Tank? Have you lost more fish?
There are quite a number of things that combine to create a healthy tank, generally free of disease. If you choose to share information and pics of your setup and follow our advice, I guarantee you will have much less trouble in the future and it may not even cost a dime.
Or you can spend more of your hard earned money and cross your fingers. 
A UV Sterilizer is definitely a good thing, but there are many ways to "skin a cat".
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: patrick
Date Posted: December 08 2011 at 7:33am
Hey Mark,
I have a 210 reef with UV sterilizer, skimmer, poly reactor (carbon,phosban), bag filtration on the return, temp at 82, had water checked and all was good, I have hard and soft corals,rbtas, urchins and stars, a few tangs, butterfly, cardinal, clowns, 8 chromis, gobies, shrimp, coral beauty, and of course snails/hermit crabs. I will work on getting a photo up soon. So far I lost the powder brown tang (likely the carrier), and 1 chromi. My hippo tang is covered and scratching and the butterfly has it as well but doesn't seem to be bothered. I picked up a ozone unit from Adam and I'm trying that for now. I do have a trap if needed. I welcome any and all input here.... if this doesn't show some results i'm going fishing. thanx for your reply
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Posted By: rufessor
Date Posted: December 08 2011 at 9:15am
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Ozone will not work. Catch the fish and treat them. The levels of Ozone required to really cure a tank your size would be incredible... and the Ich parasite lives on the gravel for 7-28 days dividing and producing more infectious agent. Once Ich releases from the fish (when you think its cured if you use garlic) the life form changes its appearance and way of living, goes and attaches to a rock/gravel/whatever and forms a protected cyst like environment where it begins to divide and yet again take on a new shape and lifestyle. This can take up to 28 days, whereupon it is released back into the water as a new form that requires a fish to live and needs to find a living fish within a short period of time or it dies. So, if there are no fish when that last part happens it dies and you win... but you have to wait it out.
SO...Once its on the fish, you are GUARANTEED to have live, infectious particles in your water for AT LEAST 28 days since you last saw a white salty grain on your fish. By the way, Ich commonly infects Gills... but you cannot see that... Ozone will not get at all the places the parasite is nor effectively kill the entire population. Pull your fish, treat them with copper or hyposalinity (whichever you prefer), leave the display FISH free for at least a month, then go ahead and put them back. It sucks, but this is just a simple biological reality, you can go ahead and get a microscope and find each of these different morphs of the parasite in your tank if you really look. The fact is, this is NOT something unusual in nature, this is pretty much bland vanilla flavored changes in an organism as it switches to different lifestyles, many things do this... we just think its weird because most of them are so small you need a microscope to see it.... but you know that a fly larve looks a lot different than a fly right... so if you came into a room and saw no flies but a ton of larva you would instantly know that the room in question was very far from fly free... in fact it was infested. The fact is, you cannot see ICH but for a very short (7 day or so) part of its 30-40 day life. Its THERE. I don't understand where garlic came from or why its so often suggested. I would suggest you look into this a bit more (there are a lot of resources, even books from people with degrees in parasitology and marine biology) and decide for yourself.
If you decide that its going to require treatment based in science I think you will find that the following options exist for our home aquaria... there are all sorts of chemicals that have been tested in marine fish breed stocks in aqua culture. I would be heisitant to recommend them in a home situation.
Hyposalinity like 0.11-0.13 for weeks (LOOK THIS UP I AM GOING FROM MEMORY) Copper treatment (AGAIN< LOOK UP DOSING AND FISH TOLERANCE) Repeated transfers to fresh QT tanks to outrun the parasite.
If your all ready loosing fish this should be a fairly concrete bit of evidence that you are loosing the battle and need to change tactics now.
------------- Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -A.E. 57 Gallon RImless build in progress check the thread before if becomes boring and just full of nice pictures of colorful coral!
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Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: December 08 2011 at 9:55am
BS
Adam
Ps-is it fair game to call bs? lol
------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun!
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Posted By: rufessor
Date Posted: December 08 2011 at 10:04am
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SUre its fair game... are you referencing that Ozone wont work? I guess thats the least certain part of my statement... do you have something to support it, I cannot find anything much when looking and not much in the literature so I went with that. For sure I stand 100% by the life cycle biology, you can look that up in any number of places. If Ozone works and has been proven scientifically and there is some real study showing it, I will gladly adopt that as a practice, heck I would even use it as its pretty safe otherwise.
ALWAYS up for learning... thats why I post, to try to help... and to ask questions. I am super glad you called BS... LOL... if its BS!
Give me something real to learn from though...
------------- Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -A.E. 57 Gallon RImless build in progress check the thread before if becomes boring and just full of nice pictures of colorful coral!
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Posted By: rufessor
Date Posted: December 08 2011 at 10:15am
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Personal experience is somewhat less reliable, fish that are infected by Ich will in some percentage of the case gain resistance/immunity to the parasite, just like we get immunized from further chicken pox illness by getting it as a child. Apparently in fish the immunization effect is quite a bit less than 100%, i.e. not all infected fish apparently gain future immunity, and I doubt we know the % and it probably varied by species a little bit... so its not reliable, but works enough times that some fraction are resistant so any one individual treating with something might think it was 100% effective, but in reality their fish simply became immune through natural processes. Just curious about ozone and how we know it works for Ich.
Too bad its not like chicken pox... once and your done. Or at least is not always like that, only some of the time.
To be honest, all I am trying to do is point out that there are very few concrete known facts with respect to this parasite, heck we don't even have human biology nailed down and we spend hundreds of billions a year on that particular problem. So... if you want to go with proven methods and by that I mean things that have undergone some type or rigor in review and evaluation of the data... and your dealing with fish... in a coral reef... if your home... the list gets pretty small pretty quick.
If you then turn to personal observations as your guide, well.... there you go. Its rapidly random and you will not have to look far to find someone telling you to play music. Not suggesting that anyone here is saying that, and we have people with a lot more experience than I on this board and I listen to them... but I have a pretty strong background in some aspects of this topic so I am taking a pretty straight line approach, things that I am confident will work- based upon reliable study of a scientific basis- I am recommending. Thats all.
That does not mean other methods do not work, and I probably should not have stated categorically that Ozone would not work... information... needed.
------------- Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -A.E. 57 Gallon RImless build in progress check the thread before if becomes boring and just full of nice pictures of colorful coral!
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Posted By: Adam Blundell
Date Posted: December 08 2011 at 11:06am
Typing on my phone, will try to write later...yes to garlic and ozone both well studied
------------- Come to a meeting, they�re fun!
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Posted By: BillyC
Date Posted: December 08 2011 at 12:05pm
^
REALLY looking forward to this Adam. I've always wondered about studies about these two
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 08 2011 at 12:16pm
As far as I know, a fish cannot develop an immunity to a parasite. The immune system of a fish works at the microscopic level creating antigens, I believe that's one of the terms, to eat bacteria and virus. The ich parasite is a million times larger than a bacteria or virus. Ozone and the similar effect that UV Sterilization creates in the tank water kills or at least hinders most micro-organisms like the Ich Parasite in all it's forms. I used to wonder how on earth that little bit of water moving through UV light could possibly change the tank enough to stop ich. Experience has shown that I was wrong. It does work. The same for Garlic. My experience has definitely shown that it works too. ************
Wow, a UV Sterilizer already in use and ich that bad. This means there are some important issues to be resolved. At this point, knowing that UV Sterilization is already part of the setup, I can definitely promise less problems with ich if this is approached with an open mind. There needs to be a willingness to try the suggestions and patience to let the changes take effect. Biological systems require patience.
When I can see a pic of the tank, I'll start making recommendations, but now I have more questions: - Does the tank smell like the ocean or does it have a fishy smell? - What are the Alk, Ca and pH levels of this tank? - What is the pH level at 6AM (before sunrise and lights on) - Is there a Refugium and how is it set up? Pic? Is the algae growing? - What kinds of alga are growing in the display tank? - What is the food and feeding schedule? - Which is the oldest fish and how old is it? - Is the tank always at 82 degrees? Nighttime temp? - How fast is water flowing throughout the tank itself?
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: patrick
Date Posted: December 08 2011 at 12:52pm
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Holy Chit Mark! You want the down and dirty.... I can say only this for now (gotta run), smells same as ever, I will have to check my pH, no refugium, I did have a recent problem with red slime (increased flow in tank and resolved). I feed seaweed with garlic, mysis, emerald entree, reef blend, brine (once a day couple of cubes along with square of seaweed). My Clowns, cardinal and Hippo I have had since I bought the tank 3.5 yrs ago. I think the tank is a total of 5.5 yrs. old. I'm noticing my skimmer is going bat shit filling up with water??? Maybe from the Herbtana treatments? I checked everything else... I will be home on Saturday and can offer a beer/drink to anyone who wants to drop by and give there thoughts. I think 80 is the average, it cools off after the lights go out. I think I have good flow??? I do need a new UV bulb... going to get that today. I'm a little on the low side salinity. Thank you again for your interest.
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Posted By: rufessor
Date Posted: December 08 2011 at 1:24pm
Acquired immunity to salt water ich is very well documented. Its also not at all unusual, i.e. with respect to acquiring immunity to a "large" parasite, very common.
CHeck this page out it has references http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html
Were ok linking out are we??? If not tell me and I will delete this part.
As far as immunity goes, to say its complex would be accurate... but acquired immunity to parasites is extremely well documented across almost all forms of life and relies upon a diverse range of cellular and other processes such as complement (a system of proteins that "blow up" the parasite by essentially rupturing its membrane killing it). Immunity is one of the major reasons I am pretty skeptical about treatments outside of the traditional list... its so easy to get the right response (i.e. ich is no longer on my fish) for the wrong reason... your fish is immune, ich is not dead.
This article summarizes much of what is known and suspected including ich, UV, Ozone etc. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php
I am happy (thanks for the BS alert Adam) to report that they cite a study where a fish was introduced into a infested tank (intentional) and then the tank treated with Ozone, and the fish was fine for 21 days... not done with the parasite life cycle but looking pretty good.
Just more information for the discussion.
Seems like your on the right track with Ozone. UV can be hard, flow rate is so important to get an adequate UV dose to kill the pathogen...
------------- Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -A.E. 57 Gallon RImless build in progress check the thread before if becomes boring and just full of nice pictures of colorful coral!
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 10 2011 at 7:16pm
Patrick?
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: Dion Richins
Date Posted: December 10 2011 at 10:17pm
You can cite all the literature you want to support any end game you want. Truth in my tank is this simple. UV and ozone with garlic from time to time has kept my tanks free from ick infestations for years now. The parasite exists in all tanks whether you want to believe it or not. ITs just waiting to take control of a week fish. I belive that to some extent all fish are carriers. Most are able to keep the problem at such a low level that they are not bothered by it. The fact that Patrick is having such a bad out break suggests that there is a serious imbalance of something in his tank. Chemical, water, stray electricity, aggression, temp swings, just to name some of the possible causes. Mark has a point that you have 2 choices when confronted by an outbreak like this. I'm going to paraphrase it this way. 1- you can read all the published literature you want and do your best to decipher what has been written. And hope that it is based in reality and not just a lab setting. 2- you can find out how the members of your local club have combated the issue. Taking in the advice of the ones that have not only been in the hobby over a year but keep large and multiple tanks. They have combated the issue (some times many times in their learning curve) and typically won and/or learned what doesn't work.
Now to the BS part. Ozone isn't supposed to kill the parasite on the fish. It kills the free floating Bugs. Much like the UV. Combine them both and you've got a great killing machine. YOUR job at this time is to get your fish healthy enough to survive the attack and then FIX what ever weekend them to the point that they succumbed to the attack......or keep losing fish?
------------- http://www.customaquariumfurniture.com" rel="nofollow - Bad "censored" Cabinets Best quality in the valley! He is one sexy bald guy, even with out a finger!(MAC)
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Posted By: patrick
Date Posted: December 11 2011 at 8:59am
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To all: Wow, what an amazing group to offer so much help and direction in an absolute chit storm. I will certainly be joining the club and I want to thank all who took time out of their lives to offer their experience/insight. Here is were I stand.
Things looking on the up and up... Spots are diminishing and fish aren't irritated anymore. This is the action I took. New UV light (mine was well, lets just say I probably had the equivelant of a Keychain flashlight running in there). Ozone, running off and on the past 3 days (sometimes hours at a time).... I never noticed any change in corals etc. Garlic, just started using it again to keep appetites up. I originally tried Herbtana (I'm sure that did nothing for me). A water change in the midst of it all. I lost a Yellow Tang and my Powder Brown Tang (the likely cause). I will be concentrating on getting a refugium up and going, keeping my temp stable, and maintaining my water chem. I think the deep clean and addition of new fish I did recently kicked the sleeping bear....woops. I will also be setting up a quarantine/hosp tank and will start isolating new fish for 48 hrs and use freshwater dips.
So.... for now, I think I'm out of the woods unless the buggers are just between stages. I will certainly give a shout-out if anything changes! BTW, does anyone have some greenery to help me start my refugium? You guys are awesome. THANK YOU. See you at the next mtg. I am able to attend so I can put faces to the names.
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Posted By: rufessor
Date Posted: December 11 2011 at 9:42am
I can get you a little cheato free. others may have much larger suplies to provide bigger chunks.
------------- Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -A.E. 57 Gallon RImless build in progress check the thread before if becomes boring and just full of nice pictures of colorful coral!
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: December 11 2011 at 10:00am
patrick wrote:
To all: Wow, what an amazing group to offer so much help and direction in an absolute chit storm. I will certainly be joining the club and I want to thank all who took time out of their lives to offer their experience/insight. |
The reason the WMAS is 10 times larger, per capita, than any other club
in the world is because we really go out of our way to help each other. 
It looks like the UV Sterilizer had been keeping the little buggers
under control but it had lost it's usefulness because the UV tube was
old and weak. I agree with your conclusion that the "deep clean and
addition of new fish" stressed the tank to the point that the parasite
found an environment perfect for reproduction.
Ozone use, as you described it, was probably not significant enough to make the difference. The new UV tube is what did the trick.
If you would like to improve your pet's environment even more, to make them really happy, to make
it so nice that if the UV goes out the parasite won't again sweep
through the land, give some thought to my previous questions and post a
pic of the tank.
If I was able to visit in person and actually see your tank, as I have
with hundreds of hobbyists since we began the WMAS, the long list of
questions would have been asked as we http://folklife.si.edu/center/talk.aspx - talked story and
looked at your tank. In the absence of that visit, and to save time, I
simply created the list of questions. We really can help you improve
your reef aquarium and your enjoyment of the hobby, if you will take the
time to answer the remaining questions below.
- Does the tank smell like the ocean or does it have a fishy smell?
- What are the Alk, Ca and pH levels of this tank?
- What is the pH level at 6AM (before sunrise and lights on)
- What algae is growing in the tank and how much of it?
- How fast is water flowing throughout the tank itself. what pumps and how are they placed?
- What garlic product and how is it being dosed? - Pic of the tank?
I would highly recommend asking Adam and Dion if you could
pay them each a visit and learn how they keep a healthy environment in
their aquariums.
And finally, this is yours truly "in" one of my best Refugium-less tanks, TOTM November 2008.

And another:

And another 

------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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