cycling?
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URL: http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=66732
Printed Date: May 08 2025 at 9:35am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: cycling?
Posted By: tink
Subject: cycling?
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 9:57am
I'm sure this had already been answered a time or two sorry in advance
This is the first tank I've set up on my own from scratch so I've never seen the cycling process happen. I've done much research, read forms on here, and talked to people. So I understand what had to happen, why it happens, and how it happens but I'm confused because I have yet to see much signs of cycling in my tank. It's only been running for a week so maybe it's still to soon? Maybe I'm missing a key element in the process? Walk through on how I set the tank up and what's been done so far. I used 20 lbs of live sand (yep in a bag haha) with its packet, 16 lbs of wet live rock from Ryan at aquatic dreams, 2 or so lbs of live rock from my boyfriend already established reef tank. I filled the back "heater" section with dry live rock rubble. I filed it with 2 gallons of reef water and the remaining pre-mixed salt again from Ryan. The next day I tested the water and the levels where: ph=7.4, ammonia= 0.50, nitrate= 0.50 and nitrate. The same Day I added 2 snails and 2 crabs (after talking to Ryan about cycling without fish). I only run my light for about 2hrs a day. It sat for 2 days then I left for the weekend fully expecting to come back to dead crabs and snails, and maybe some diatoms. But instead I came home to 2 live hermits,2 live snails, and white bugs on my glass. My water tonight test as so: ph=8.2, ammonia=0, nitrite=0, and nitrate=20. What am I missing? Is this normal?
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Replies:
Posted By: aceofspadeskb
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 11:12am
Sounds to me like you're cycled.
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 2:41pm
From what you explained I would say that all is going as expected. Not much in the way of living matter has gone into the tank to create any pollution so that's why N levels are low. The LR moved from that established tank is handling it so far. The live sand bed is still getting established and is not ready for anything immediate.
Growth of the biofiltration, or in other words, bacteria, bugs and worms, can come as quickly or as slowly as we want, depending on how much goes into the tank to provide decomposing organic matter. I believe it is only a matter of time before brown diatom algae will become visible. To shorten the duration of that process, add as much Macroalgae as can be found and turn the lights on to a 10-12 hour photoperiod. Because of traditional information still hanging on the www and because of the constant turnover of hobbyists, the hobby in general still does not seem to grasp the faster way of setting up a tank which I described almost 10 years ago here, http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244" rel="nofollow - http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 and which BobC is currently doing a great job of writing about here: http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=66673" rel="nofollow - http://utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=66673
Aloha, Mark 
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 5:03pm
Thank you for the links Mark, I've been following Bobc's thread as well. So far great info and I'm trying not to get to inpatient I'm not so worried about how long it takes to fully cycle as much as I am to create a healthy, stable environment. Took millions of years to create the ocean as we know it now so if it takes months to do semi the same thing in my tank, then I'll wait months haha. I know I'm crazy it's okay
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: Softplan
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 9:05pm
A source of ammonia is needed to build up the bacteria colony. I cycled my tank by putting in dr tims one and only. http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/treat-aquarium-nitrite-ammonia-levels" rel="nofollow - http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/treat-aquarium-nitrite-ammonia-levels
I then put in straight ammonia into the tank to feed the bacteria until it was fully cycled. You will know it's fully cycled if you add some ammonia and within 24 hours ammonia, and nitrites are 0. It took probably almost 2 months for my nitrates to be at 0. They hovered around 5 or 10 during that time.
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Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 9:33pm
Tink -
Cycling a tank is so "1990s"
In your case, I'm not 100% sure your tank has cycled in just a week (but it could be). How big is the tank?
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 11:08pm
I don't think it has either I just assumed (probably never a good thing) that I would see some sort of change. Either in water levels, dead critters, diatoms, yucky water haha I don't know what really just something. The tank is is 16gl Innovative Marine, I can't find the exact measurements though.
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 11:11pm
I did forget to mention I put a cube of misis shrimp in there
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: Softplan
Date Posted: September 24 2013 at 11:51pm
They way you are doing it will work, it will just take longer. If you are looking to get it cycled fast that one and only can have it done in 2 weeks or less. Mine took about 2 weeks. At that point I added 2 fish and no issues.
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: September 30 2013 at 9:34am
Week two and still no, it's this okay?
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: September 30 2013 at 9:38am
tink wrote:
Week two and still no, it's this okay? |
Your tank is what it is; they all take a little different period of time to cycle.
I read up in the thread that you added a cube of mysis; but you also added a small CUC. Thus, the mysis was likely consumed by your CUC instead of assisting in your cycling efforts.
If it were me, I'd start increasing the lighting time and see what happens.
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Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: September 30 2013 at 9:46am
You've got approx 18lbs of live rock in there + live sand, too
IMO you were never going to see much of a cycle 'spike' because you already had all that live stuff - which is a good thing (that's how I start my tanks)
If you had used all dry (dead) rock and sand then you would see that traditional old school cycle
I think you are ready for fish - provided your other parameters (SG, Alk, Ca) are all within range
Since you only have 16g to work with, I would advise adding fish 1 at a time, with a 2 - week adjustment period between additions
Coral, you can add almost as quickly as you want - but don't go crazy with softies (unless you are doing an all - softy tank) because many soft corals add toxins to the water as a form of 'coral warfare' that are detrimental to the more finicky LPS and SPS types...
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: September 30 2013 at 9:59am
All other water parameters are good, I'll just be moving everything from my nano over except the rock and sand. The nano is a toxic soup bowl right now so if i can get my coral out of there asap I'd love too haha. Thank you for your guys advice I've never set up a new tank so I wasn't sure what to expect. Your advice is greatly appreciated
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: September 30 2013 at 10:02am
I'd take a small (like 1 cup) amount of sand out of your nano and add it to the new tank; the bagged 'live sand' from stores is really not all that 'live'; adding a seed of your own will help move things along..
And I know you said 'toxic soup' but unless your nano parameters are really bad, I'd transfer maybe a half gallon of live water from the nano as well
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: September 30 2013 at 10:16am
Should I wait to add anything to the new tank for a while after I do that or just do it at the same time? The parameters aren't way bad but they aren't good either I did a water change (only a gallon) in that tank about a week ago and now I'm having a crazy out break of different algaes I'm not so fond of But it is what is and the nano will be shut down soon. Thank you again
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: September 30 2013 at 10:20am
Chances are very high that moving stuff (ie sand, water, corals) from your existing nano to your new tank will result in moving plenty of those unwanted algae spores. So be prepared to have a little fight on your hands in your new tank. Eventually you can win the battle; just don't get discouraged.
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: September 30 2013 at 11:50am
I'm in agreement with Bob. I see less problems with moving the coral over now than leaving it in a bad situation. The more life is moved over the less this new tank will be a "new" tank. Remember, "Coral filter the water." Coral actually creates its own nice environment. Also, the problems Bob mentioned about soft coral are easily avoided by running AC
Could you be more specific about this "...crazy out break of different algaes..."
Every problem is fixable and yet we would not like to hear of you having problems (crazy algae) again with the new tank. It might be good to show us the old tank so we can help you avoid the same thing happening down the road in your new tank.
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 8:42am
Here's some pictures, some of the alga I don't mind but others I would rather not have such as these ones:
    
I don't mind these ones 
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: Upload
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 10:55am
The good news is that appears to be pretty well established live rock
To get rid if the algaes you don't want, what I would do is take 1 rock at a time, and a tupperware bowl of tank water
Keep the rock submerged in the bowl and use a scrub brush to remove the unwanted stuff. If you have attached corals just be careful not to scrub those areas. You can also use a new toothbrush to do the scrubbing in those tight spots
And I'd probably run down to WalMart and get a brand new little scrub brush to use (so you don't accidently use one that had soap in it). Look in the kitchenware section; you can get one for less than $2
Return the rock to the tank. Gently shake the rock underwater to release any possible air bubbles trapped inside.
Repeat the process for each rock in the tank. That tupperware bowl water is going to get pretty dirty, so throw that water out when you are finished.
To keep the rock looking good, normally I'd recommend an algae grazing fish like a tang or dwarf angel, but your tank is too small for that.
You'll need to up your snail & crab count significantly. I'd do a total of 20 snails and 15 small hermits for your 16g tank. While the CUC can be effective, they really do not eat alot individually. A CUC of 35 creatures won't starve in your tank.
Do all that, then go pick out your first fish 
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 11:42am
All that rock will end up in an eel tank. When I set up the im 16gl I used new clean live rock. That rock in the pictures have some hitch hikers I didn't want in the 16gl, but I don't really want get ride of either such as large flat worms that eat clams and very large anemones (aptasha or beaded its been called both). Thank you for the advice I'll be cleaning it up before moving it to the eel tank. I did scrub the red algae of the candy canes before moving them into the new tank. There are pictures of the IM 16gl after the move and the old nano before the move in the tank thread
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 1:06pm
What is the source of water you are using for water changes and to top off your tank? Have you tested it for phosphates?
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 1:11pm
I use ro water from Ryan at aquatic dreams. I haven't recently, I've been kind of discouraged with that tank after it attempted to crash at the beginning of Last month. The last time I checked it was 9/19 and it was at 1.0 but I've done a water change since then. I'll check it later today
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 1:14pm
Once your tank is growing algae you won't get an accurate phosphate reading because the phosphates are feeding the algae.
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Posted By: Mark Peterson
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 1:16pm
Thanks for the great close up pics. What I definitely see is a tank that has too few Snails. I use Astrea, Cerith and Margarita, in that order. I hesitate to make any other conclusions/suggestions based on the peeks given. May we see a full tank pic to show us the entire environment 
Perhaps I'm just a lazy reefer, but I try to curb the urge to pull LR out of the water and scrub it, preferring instead to use natural methods of cleaning up algae. Scrubbing can unintentionally remove or damage the amazing tiny invertebrate life that tends to get overlooked but is an important part of biofiltration. Though when rock is moved, that is an excellent time to remove Valonia/bubble algae or other pests. I recommend lots of Snails(1/gal), a few Hermits(1 per 2-4gals), an Emerald crab and a Peppermint Shrimp for every 40 gallons or so.
Aloha, Mark 
------------- Reefkeeping Tips, & quick, easy setup tricks: www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9244 Pay it forward - become a paid WMAS member
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 1:27pm
Before yesterday
 After yesterday, everything has been moved to the new tank except the cuc, a wrasse, peppermint shrimp, and urchin. Which will be moved over when I finish taking this tank down.

------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 1:30pm
How do I keep it out of the New tank since I'm sure when I moved everything over I brought it with.
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 1:38pm
tink wrote:
How do I keep it out of the New tank since I'm sure when I moved everything over I brought it with. |
Yes, you likely did bring some of it into the new tank. I don't think its possible to avoid all algae. Just try to have very good circulation, a sufficient cleanup crew and phosphate free water for top offs and water changes. One thing I have found helpful is to use a small powerhead now and then to blow your rocks clean - you could glue a piece of PVC to the powerhead to use as a handle while you are cleaning your rocks. Your tank is going to show you where your low circulation areas are as that is likely where you might see algage growing and where you will see a lot of stuff blowing off your rocks if you chose to blow them clean now and then. I'd also get that skimmer set up ASAP. Some may recommend that you use some chemicals in a mesh bag in your filtration area.
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 1:51pm
I just added a koralia 425 for the 16gl. I'm still trying to find the perfect spot for it though. The skimmer is in the works but I had already planned on one. Im trying to avoid the Chem bags, I believe that is what caused the start of my crash in the Nano. Everything in my Nano was doing great until I did my first water change and added a chem bag then things went bad and the nano has never been the same. I'm not overly worried about that tank because I'm tearing it down but I don't want the same problems in the New tank. Thank you for your advice.
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 1:52pm
I'd add that it IS impossible to avoid all algae...
There are algal spores in your salt mix
There are algal spores in the air
There are algal spores in live rock that has long since been dried out
That's why you can set up a perfectly 'sterile' tank (dry rock, dry sand, RO/DI water,commercial salt mix, etc) and, with a little light and if you wait long enough...
Algae!
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 1:53pm
tink wrote:
I just added a koralia 425 for the 16gl. I'm still trying to find the perfect spot for it though. The skimmer is in the works but I had already planned on one. Im trying to avoid the Chem bags, I believe that is what caused the start of my crash in the Nano. Everything in my Nano was doing great until I did my first water change and added a chem bag then things went bad and the nano has never been the same. I'm not overly worried about that tank because I'm tearing it down but I don't want the same problems in the New tank. Thank you for your advice. |
When you say "Chem bags" - what specifically were you running?
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 1:57pm
Chem-pure elite
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 2:01pm
Some algae is okay just don't want it out of control haha, I had a little in the nano which I left alone nothing abnormal you know the picture in with it in glass (totally normal right?) That's what accumulated in just half the day
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 2:08pm
tink wrote:
I just added a koralia 425 for the 16gl. I'm still trying to find the perfect spot for it though. |
Unfortunately, you may need to invest in one more circ pump -- its difficult even for a small tank to have one circ pump have enough flow, especially with the kind of rock work you have (which I think looks really cool by the way). I'd suggest one pump down very very low pointing at an angle upward and the other pump up higher pointing at an angle downward. But you will just need to play with it. Fortunately for your size tank the circ pumps aren't too expensive.
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 2:24pm
I'm noticing haha still a lot of dead spots at the bottom no matter where I put the head. I think I've moved it 3 or 4 times trying to hit all spots between the returns and the pump it's not happening. Thank you on my rocks I'm glad I have a tiny tank to maintain. I see how much my boyfriend puts out to maintain his 2 bigger tanks and 1 med haha. I tell him all the time I'll put the time (and they are not in the best of shape so there's much time I need) into keeping them tighty of He flips the bill.
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: BobC63
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 3:32pm
A single wp25, run W1 mode @ S3 speed.
No more dead spots. And just 1 pump.
PS - No need for the Chemi-Pure (as you have already found out) but you should run some form of carbon filtration at least...
------------- - My Current Tank: 65g Starfire (sitting empty for 2+ years) -
* Marine & Reef tanks since 1977 *
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 3:37pm
BobC63 wrote:
PS - No need for the Chemi-Pure (as you have already found out) but you should run some form of carbon filtration at least... |
Haha, hey thanks for the advice... lesson learned for sure
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 3:38pm
BobC63 wrote:
A single wp25, run W1 mode @ S3 speed.
No more dead spots. And just 1 pump.
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I'm curious as to where you would put the pump with the way she has her aquascape? I will have open rock work like she has in my cube and really doubt one pump will be able to hit both sides of the rock. Maybe I'm not thinking about all of the possibilities here. I have an MP40 in my 65 and I have some dead spots with it because of the way I've aquascaped. How do ya'll manage with only one pump when your rock isn't pushed up against the back of the tank?
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Posted By: Molli
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 3:42pm
tink wrote:
BobC63 wrote:
PS - No need for the Chemi-Pure (as you have already found out) but you should run some form of carbon filtration at least... |
Haha, hey thanks for the advice... lesson learned for sure  |
Don't be thinking that Chemi-Pure caused your nuisance algae problem ... I really can't see how it could have.
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 3:57pm
Molli wrote:
tink wrote:
BobC63 wrote:
PS - No need for the Chemi-Pure (as you have already found out) but you should run some form of carbon filtration at least... |
Haha, hey thanks for the advice... lesson learned for sure  |
Don't be thinking that Chemi-Pure caused your nuisance algae problem ... I really can't see how it could have. |
I don't think it was the problem for the algae, there are numerous of things that play a roll into the algae. I do believe though that doing a water change fit the first time and then adding chemicals to a tank that has been chemical free for its whole existence (almost a year) was not the way to go for my tank since before then everything was thriving. That tank runs hot, there isn't much cuc, phosphates are probably off, I'm sure the list goes on I just kinda have up on that tank
------------- Creating my own ocean
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Posted By: icenine
Date Posted: October 01 2013 at 4:44pm
BobC63 wrote:
PS - No need for the Chemi-Pure (as you have already found out) but you should run some form of carbon filtration at least... |
You know Chemi-Pure is carbon, right?
The elite is just carbon with a GFO as well.
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