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Suzy 
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 Topic: Seahorse Mama Drama!
Posted: October 27 2004 at 9:20am |
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Hi, guys! Some of you might know I've been blessed with a few
pairs of breeding seahorses. When I had my first batch, I started
planning my retirement! Alas, it turns out that my breed is the
hardest to breed, according to Tracy Travid from syngnathid.
org. (She's the Goddess of SH breeding!) Not the actually
breeding part. These guys are just like rabbits! It's raising the
babies that is hard...
Thus far, my best is gettting 4 of them to 7 weeks, to the
hitching stage!! Then I can't figure out why, one day they are
hitching and eating and then the next day they die off one by
one!
So, I've been researching RC and the 2 SH sites, trying to find
the magic secret!
So, I'm looking one day last week, and I thought "Why am I
looking elsewhere when the WMAS has the smartest people on
this planet!"
I don't think anybody has any experience with this particular
breed of fish, but you guys are the brain storming kings! Can
you help me with a group brainstorming?
Anybody have any thoughts? Why they just die?
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Jake Pehrson
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Posted: October 27 2004 at 1:09pm |
Suzy,
What species do you have? What type of rearing tank are you using? What types of food are you feeding? Have you tried adding a few directly to a Green Water, Rotifer, BBS, culture?
How are your dwarfs doing?
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: October 27 2004 at 1:31pm |
 Jake Pehrson wrote:
Have you tried adding a few directly to a Green Water, Rotifer, BBS, culture? |
That's how I raised my clownfish. In a 10 gallon tank with one piece of LR, it became a green soup of life which fed them constantly. I believe I actually added additional rotifers because they ate them faster than the rotifers could multiply, but still the greenwater grew other food bugs as well.
Why not strike out on your own and get away from the sterile conditions that many newbies endorse. You've told me that you know more about it than 99% of the people at seahorse.org
After all, it wasn't until hobbyists let their tanks grow more life that they began to grow more coral.
Your fishbowls are so small and certainly lack filtration. Have you contacted Rodney B. to learn how he solved the problem of water filtration for all those baby Percula.
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Suzy
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Posted: October 27 2004 at 2:58pm |
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Thanks, Guys! I knew I could count on you!
I'm still not sure about the species! They are either H. kuda or
H. reidi, both have pelagic fry. I posted pics on the 2 seahorse
sites, but got different answers from the people that seem that
most knowledgeable!
Here's what Travid said on her site:
Hippocampus taeniopterus sometimes called the
common seahorse, adults can grow to approximately 22cms -
fry are born very small approx 5mm and are considered pelagic
and not easy to raise.
But they are a stunning looking horse.
Sweet, huh?
I have tried like 10 different nursery set ups. But, I only started
designing them after I looked at other peoples ideas. I was
hoping you guys could come up with a design, since your
brains haven't been tainted!
So, imagine this little tiny seahorse fry, about the half the size
of a brine shrimp! They only eat live food, which pollutes the
water. They are pelagic, which means they just float through
the water, eating whatever small enough thing cruises by their
snout! There needs to be some force that encourages them to
not just float to the surface, where they can't get food.
Any ideas?
I'll answer your questions after you guys come up with some
nursery plans, OK? I don't want to tell what I've already tried,
'cause I want to see if anything new turns up, and if I tell the
ones I've already done, you will be thinking about them!
And, then I want to discuss the nutrition part...
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Jake Pehrson
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Posted: October 27 2004 at 4:06pm |
Nursery plans:
Dump a few (20-30) seahorses in a 10-15 gallon container (those pre-filled filtered water containers placed upside down work well) that has good water flow from air tube(s) (without stones) and place a lot of greenwater, rotifers, and bbs. Make sure to keep the green water, rotifer, and bbs population high (this is the key IMO). Any pollutants put out by the seahorses should be used up by the greenwater (see Marks tank for an example).
-You shouldn't need any hitching stations for at least the first week or two (maybe more) if they are truly pelagic when they are born, depends on how fast they grow.
-Make sure there are NO stagnant areas or your seahorses will gather there and most likely starve.
-Make sure the water is green. If you can't keep the water green then you will most likely fail IMO.
-Make sure the rotifer population stays high.
-You will need to constantly add BBS. Although it may be better for water quality to hatch them out side the Seahorse enclosure, I used to add the decapsulated BS eggs directly to the nursery. That way the foals can get to them as soon as they hatch. BS grow quickly. Waiting a couple of hours after they hatch to feed them to your foals may be too long, especially if your horses are born small.
Edited by Jake Pehrson
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Suzy
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Posted: October 27 2004 at 4:33pm |
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Wow!
Do you mean one of the blue water jugs? Like they use in
business offices? From Culligan?
You're right about the hitching stations. They don't hitch 'till
about 3 weeks, then they could just be in a regular tank.
Maybe!
I'm going to do an expirement on the next batch, with one
batch getting Rots & BBS, they other just bbs. I'm not sure they
even eat the rots!
I have to hatch the BBS for my other guys, anyway.
So, you think 20-30 fry: 10-15 gallons is a good ratio? 2 per
gallonish?
Any other ideas? Nursery wise? I am going to try this one, but
I'm game for anything!
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lex0219
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Posted: October 27 2004 at 4:40pm |
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she also has dwarfs and thanks to her so do i suzy u rock
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"I will search until i find my happily ever after"-renee
tanks
10 gal dwarf
30 gal fw
10 gal nano reef
12 gal nano cub
The Air Force is where it is!
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Suzy
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Posted: October 28 2004 at 7:58am |
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Mark, AKA Mr Natural Biodiversity-is-my-homeboy-all-knowing-
of-aquatic-lifeforms guy! The nursery has to keep the little
things from floating to the top, a little different than anemone
fish fry.
I have read Wilkersons book about clownfish, more than once
actually! I think some things about the fry are similar, but the
success rates vary significantly.
Jake, I've been thinking about your design. Do you mean
taking a bottle neck type bottle and inverting it? Or just any
container?
Adam, where are you? Mr Fry Nursery Inventor? I need you!
Bad! Can you bring your pic over here so we can discuss it's
application to my babies?
Jason, did you leave me? In my time of need? I hope you're
not mad at me....'cause I think you're cute! And sweet! And I'm
not just saying that 'cause your middle name is Mr Breeder!
Where are the rest of WMAS smarty pants inventors? I know
you're not not posting because you're shy! Maybe you think
your ideas will seem silly after Jake's cool idea? Maybe, too
simple? Maybe, too elaborate?
Don't think that! I'm hoping to crack this mystery! And, maybe a
combo of a lot of ideas will work!
So, I've fooled my equines into thinking that it is winter, but I put
a heater back into the tank last week, and the temp is up to 74`.
Today I'm going to start making the sun stay up a little bit
longer. I've got some pretty healthy adults right now! One of the
females dropped some eggs yesterday, so I think she is ready!
(Yummy hermit snack!) When I get babies, there should be
plenty to "experiment" with, so I'm hoping for a few different
designs to play with.
Come on, guys (and chickolas!)! I need you!!
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Jake Pehrson
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Posted: October 28 2004 at 9:25am |
Suzy wrote:
Do you mean one of the blue water jugs? Like they use in
business offices? From Culligan? |
Yes.
Suzy wrote:
Jake, I've been thinking about your design. Do you mean
taking a bottle neck type bottle and inverting it? Or just any
container?
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Well, any container will do, but you need to make sure the water is in constant motion. Through the entire containter not just on the surface. This is extremly difficult to do with a rectangle aquarium. That it why I recommend the "Culligan water bottle".
Oh and yes I invert them. Just like a big green water culture (i.e. replace the 2 liter with the "Culligan water bottle".
Suzy wrote:
So, you think 20-30 fry: 10-15 gallons is a good ratio? 2 per
gallonish?
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Yes and no. Eventually you can increase those numbers as you become more comfortable with the method and are able to provide them with lots of live foods. I think it is easier to start out with only about 20-30, maybe a few more.
Eventually you can be easily rasing 100+ babies per 10-15 gallon container.
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Suzy
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Posted: October 28 2004 at 9:58am |
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So, cut the top of the bottle off, wait bottom of the bottle, turn it
over and find some plywood frame to keep it upright? Place a
stiff acrylic tube to the bottom of the neck with a slight bubble
flow to keep 'em from cruising to the bottom (Bottom is not a big
issue with these guys! They want to go to the top!).??
Maybe add a few more bubblers to the sides? To increase the
surface agitation?
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Crazy Tarzan
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Posted: October 28 2004 at 10:36am |
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Hey suzy, what if you had an inverted cone made out of acrylic? Sort like an A
then you could have the filtration dump back in at the top, and if you
put a concave bottom on it so you didn't have any dead spots--oh and
you could have small holes drilled in the bottom edge with nozzles to
create a soft circula, or random current to help with dead spots, say 5
or 6 small nozzles pointed slightly different directions on the bottom
of the A, above the concave bottom (so it would look kinda like an
upside down icecream cone--waffle cone style with part of the cone cut
off).
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Was that in there yesterday? Casper--WY windier than ?
Down to a 20, soon to double or nothing
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Firefish
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Posted: October 28 2004 at 12:46pm |
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You may have to work with the light placement. If the seahorses hang out mostly at the top put a light at the top to keep the food there. If they mostly hang out at the bottom put the light at the bottom. Work with darkening the container so that there is only one source of light.
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Jake Pehrson
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Posted: October 28 2004 at 12:59pm |
Suzy wrote:
So, cut the top of the bottle off, wait bottom of the bottle, turn it
over and find some plywood frame to keep it upright? Place a
stiff acrylic tube to the bottom of the neck with a slight bubble
flow to keep 'em from cruising to the bottom (Bottom is not a big
issue with these guys! They want to go to the top!).??
Maybe add a few more bubblers to the sides? To increase the
surface agitation? |
Yes, with the exception of the side bubblers. I would stick to bubbles coming from the bottom (previous top). This creates great circular water movement. Side bubbles would just add chaos IMO and are not necessary.
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Suzy
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Posted: October 29 2004 at 8:32am |
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Wow! Great ideas!!!
Jake, this is going to sound so terrible, but I have spent so
much money on this fruitless endeavor, I don't want to spent
anymore than I have to for an exprriment! Those jugs cost $15
bucks at our local storee. Do you think I could use a 1 gallon
bottle, duct tape it to the wall of my fry table? As long as I used
the same density ratio? Would the phyto make less water
changes possible? Or no water changes? I can totally remove
the fry and do a water change with a new jug. ...If it has better
results, I'll buy 12 big 10 galllon jugs!
CT, would this waffle cone be inside another tank? The power
heads in the outer part? The filtered water would come from a
HOB filter thing? I actually have an acrylic waffle cone! Its a
BSD BBS hatcher! Would fit wonderfully inside this empty 10
gallon tank I have!
Jeff, I did a tank with the entire tank blackened except for the
bottom 3 inches. I don't know if it uses too much energy to stay
down there, or what but it didn't seem to work. That was like
only the third or fourth attempt, though. I should try it again. I
have an empty 5 gallon tank. Do you think I should be bare
bottom or try some biological filtration DSB wise?
Thanks for all the ideas, guys! I know there's more out there,
though! Come on inventors!
Temp 76`, daylight up to 11 hours. Mr Big is getting frisky, but
Snickers dropped her eggs recently, so I MIGHT have about 2
weeks... Smarty Jones and Seabiscuit look a little tired,
though....
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Crazy Tarzan
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Posted: October 29 2004 at 9:06am |
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Suzy, I suppose it could be, the thought I had was there is less
surface area or top to the tank with this design, and the
powerhead/nozzle arrangement is just to give some current to the water
inside. Is your waffle cone actually solid sides? I would
figure someway to filter and create current and also have it
supported. I suppose the only question is how many fry can you
put in your current bbs hatcher and not have any problems.
Edited by Crazy Tarzan
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Was that in there yesterday? Casper--WY windier than ?
Down to a 20, soon to double or nothing
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Jake Pehrson
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Posted: October 29 2004 at 9:10am |
Jake, this is going to sound so terrible, but I have spent so
much money on this fruitless endeavor, I don't want to spent
anymore than I have to for an exprriment! Those jugs cost $15
bucks at our local store
I do understand your concerns with the cost. IMO it is almost impossible to be profitable rasing seahorses (at least it was for me).
Do you think I could use a 1 gallon
bottle, duct tape it to the wall of my fry table? As long as I used
the same density ratio?
I wouldn't but you could always try it out. Maybe someone has one laying around they could give you. It doesn't hurt to ask.
Would the phyto make less water
changes possible? Or no water changes?
Yes, the phyto helps filter the water. If you keep the phyto population high I think you can go with few waterchanges.
I can totally remove the fry and do a water change with a new jug.
I would not recommend moving the fry to do water changes. To much stress IMO. If a water change is necessary I would replace a small amount of water every couple of hours, so you don't stress the horses.
If it has better results, I'll buy 12 big 10 galllon jugs!
I don't think you will have good results with the smaller jugs, but hey if they are free don't hesitate to try it out. But don't write off my suggested method if you do not follow it exactly.
The other method that work well is using a 10 gallon tank with an undergravel filter. Keep the rots, bbs, and horses in a soupy greenwater mixture. If use this method you should be able to go 7-14 days without a water change.
Edited by Jake Pehrson
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: October 29 2004 at 9:36am |
Suzy, I believe that if you work exclusively with Jake, following his directions to the "T" and kinda ignore all those "think they know it all's" (like me  ) on the MB's you will have success.
But you need to stay focused and follow pretty much exactly what he says. If you get sidetracked and stop following his advice, you might stumble, and fail to reach your goal.
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Suzy
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Posted: October 29 2004 at 2:30pm |
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Ct, I'm thinking your idea is a right side up A! or V...Are you
thinking upside down A? The BBS hatcher I have would only
hold a few fry, using the 4fry/1 gallon ratio. It does have acrylic
construction, so I could easily drill holes in it..What if I put a
bubbler in it? Or are you thinking something even bigger?
Something i would need an acrylic expert (Jon) to build?
Jon, I totallly have given up on making any mooola at this
point. I just want to have 1 live to replace Mr Big! (Not Rob!)!
He's getting old....(Again, NOT Rob....ok, Rob is getting
old....But NOT replacable!).
Does anybody have a big honkin Culliagan water jug I could
trade for some 'shrooms?
You think using a smaller version would affect the results?
Even if I stayed at the same fry:gallon ratio?
I tried the undergravel filter a few times. The little guys just want
to float. I was thinking about using that for filtration, or a dsb,
with some sort of spray bar at the top....
Mark, I need out side the box know it all thinkers! I mean you!
I'm still waiting for your nursery design!!
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Suzy
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Posted: October 30 2004 at 3:53pm |
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I don't know why I was thinking some body would come up something with some sort of natural, biological, not so sterile, sorta thing?
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smatney
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Posted: October 30 2004 at 4:31pm |
Couple of sites:
http://www.syngnathid.org/articles/raisingFry.html
http://www.lostmymarblz.com/hh-ms-5-5gal-erectus-procerusfry .htm
It also looks like you've had some of the same discussions with the seahorse breeders online. I can't think of anyone around who knows more about this than you. I know that you would love to go past two months with babies.
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Susan Matney
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