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El Vato 
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 Topic: Water Flow in a Reef Tank
Posted: May 25 2006 at 9:52am |
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Hi all,
I am curious to read the opinions of people on this board regarding water flow in our reef tanks.
1. How much flow is necessary?
2. Can you have too much flow?
3. Do we underestimate the benefits of flow?
4. Should we pay more attention to this topic rather than lights?
In my 70g tank I have a mag 18 return, and two wave2k wave makers. Several people have suggested that this is too much flow for such a small tank. However, others have been very surprised and report that the fish and coral are doing quite well. So in my attempts to understand more about my reef I ask for your opinion.
Trey
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ssilcox
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 9:56am |
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See Blundell's post below...
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 10:17am |
Flow is way important. It is super important. More important than anything else.
You can never have too much. Come over to my place next week to see an aquarium that looks more like a jetted hot tub. Two 3,600 gph pumps running closed loops on a 150 gal tank.
Thanks Shane for the heads up.
Adam
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chris.rogers
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 10:53am |
Adam, Having no other basis from which to argue other than 'Nuh uh!,'  I just can't agree with you on having so much flow. It just doesn't seem like reefs are so noisy with water movement. If they were, how would you dive down there? Enlighten me, I'm curious to know why you believe they need so much flow. P.S. - I thought water quality was above all the most important?
Edited by chris.rogers - May 25 2006 at 10:53am
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 11:05am |
Chris-
Dang, I think you're right water quality is probably more important.
There is a ton of flow in nature. It is usually bulk lateral flow. I'm at a remote terminal right now so I can't pull out figures on flow amounts. But here is the basics: corals can't move for food so it has to move to them, gas exchange is highly variable depending on how much water moves past the tissue, in our aquariums almost all filtration is dependent on water motion, our tanks probably need more water flow than typical reefs because we are so limited on water volume. I've yet to see a tank with too much flow. Keeping foods suspended and moving to corals is a big issue. One of the recent sayings is this "if you want to double the amount you are feeding your corals, don't double the amount of food you are adding but double the amount of flow in your tank" meaning just get more foods to hit the coral.
I'm unsure on how to answer your question about diving. I've been several places where I could sit motionless and really zero in on a small goby sitting on a coral. Then again I've been places where I jumped in the water and just let the current carry me away much faster than I ever could have swam. So I guess it just depends.
side note- I don't know much about thermal regulation in corals, but a friend of mine is studying the temperature of coral tissues and is showing how our aquarium lights are burning their tissue in tanks with low flow, because the absorbed heat isn't removed fast enough. It's possible that this is why our corals burn in high light areas, and not actually the light but the heat causing problems.
Adam
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chris.rogers
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 11:31am |
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Ahhhh... That side note is interesting. I'd be interested to read more.
If the intense flow is intermittent or sporadic, does that mean one should have timers on powerheads/closed loop systems?
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jpiotrowski
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 11:41am |
Here is what I actually saw:
My first pump was a little giant (2-MDQX-SC) which pumped a little under 640 gph (maximum) in my 120g. I had very little acro polyp extension and all corals grew very slowly. When I switched to an Iwakii 70 equivalent (approx. 1400gph), within a month I had 1/4 inch growth on an acro that only developed nubs in a 3-4 month span, not to mention all of my acros polyp extension was better and color improved. Unfortunately, I had to break down the tank after that month to move but my new setup has 50% less elbows increasing flow so that my overflows are almost maxed out!
Of course Adams power jet tank might not be condusive to fish. Imagine if you will the poor unsuspecting fish swimming by and is caught up in one of those jets...splat up against the glass like a bug on the windshield .
As a side I have a hyperflow 20 (1290gph) run through a scwd on my 20g frag tank!
John
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 11:46am |
Well the more I've looked into this the more I believe that the back and forth surge is really the way to go. Even diving in areas that are low flow you just have this weightless feeling as you kind of drift back and forth.
Unfortunately I haven't found anything on the market that produces great water flow. Seaswirls, scwds, timers, wavemakers, wave2k, everything is better than nothing. I'm debating on how, or if I should, put timers on my closed loops. I really wish I could use a piston to just push all the water one way, then pull it all back the other way. So far I haven't found a good way to do that. I've considered buying 5 wave2k's and putting them all right against each other, basically making one wave2k that is 5 times bigger. But then again I'd have to have them all timed together.
Oh, I'm sure my friend will publish those results in time. I think he has lots of data but isn't sure what the conclusion is. Just a matter of sitting down and figuring out how important it is and how it all works.
Adam
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Shane H
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 11:50am |
I've considered buying 5 wave2k's and putting them all right against each other
Now that would be something!
To determine how much water flow you need in your aquarium, simply install pumps or powerheads until your DSB fluidizes throughout the tank. Then - remove one pump. - PERFECT.
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El Vato
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 12:48pm |
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Adam,
Given that flow is an important issue, to what extent will a tank with high flow and moderate lighting compare with a tank with moderate flow and high lighting on coral growth?
Edited by El Vato - June 01 2006 at 3:07pm
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 1:03pm |
That is a very good question!
Without giving it much thought my initial answer is that more flow less light would cause soft corals to flourish. Lots of light low flow is not ideal for stonies but as long as they have high light they'd be fine.
Again that is a quick answer.
Adam
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KeoDog
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 2:23pm |
 Adam Blundell wrote:
Flow is way important. It is super important. More important than anything else.
You can never have too much. Come over to my place next week to see an aquarium that looks more like a jetted hot tub. Two 3,600 gph pumps running closed loops on a 150 gal tank.
Thanks Shane for the heads up.
Adam |
Adam, How many outlets do you have this going through and what size. When I first redid my tank I had 2 mag 36's divided up among 12 half inch outlets. The actual water pressure was much less than when I had 1 mag 36 pushing through 5 outlets. Is it better to have the higher pressure coming out of the outlets or not?
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Kevin Kunz (Sandy, UT)
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 3:02pm |
Kevin,
Another good question. Is it better... I don't really know. My idea is to get as much flow as I can, but lots of slow flow and not a pounding. Does that make sense? So to answer your question each of my closed loops ends up coming out of 4 returns. How large are the returns? About 5/8ths, I think.
You know those "eyeball" bulkheads in the tanks at Marine Aquatics? I bought those bulkheads (thanks Eric!) for my tank. So I have 8 of them, 4 for each pump. I'm thinking I'll have the same experience as you. Not much pressure from them, but several of them to spread out the flow.
My choice on this was well thought out. I spent several afternoons over at Dave Nellans house looking at his tank. We discussed things as he bought stuff for his tank (he is 3 months ahead of me on our tanks). I bought the exact pumps and bulkheads as he bought. However after seeing his flow I wanted more outlets and less pressure. So instead of 3 returns (as Dave has) I went with 4.
By the way I took pics and will post them sometime. I'm moving my lab today and am not really sure what computers are currently running and which are in transit.
Adam
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tileman
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 4:55pm |
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Adam, You are going to get pretty strong current useing only four outlets. I have the same "eyeballs" as you coming out of eight returns and I'm getting great flow out of every one. What are the dimensions of your "wifes" new tank?
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dnellans
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 5:24pm |
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i'll chime in here... i have a 180 that has 3 3600gph pumps of which only 2 are running at any given time. i went for 3 outlets per closed loop to generate velocity and 6 outlets on the return pump to have low velocity and good turnover.
as adam said we spent a lot of time debating together over if it was enough, etc. i do have the option of turning all 3 on together but choose to run the return pump full time and the closed loops alternating.
when i feed however the neptune turns on both closed loops and turns off the return pump.
i think its a great setup. an interesting side note is that the 180 is plumbed so there are no returns on the back of the tank. the returns are on one side and the drain plumped on the other (and vice versa) for the closed loop creating a linear flow across the tank.
the fish have started catching on and riding the flow which is beautiful, i'm in the LOTS of flow club with adam.
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danielk
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 8:03pm |
Question: By using multiple pumps in a "wavemaker" kinda setup; is turning pumps on and off ok to do? (wear and tear wise) Next qusetion: What is the best time duration per pump? Last question: At $100.00+ per pump, (I found some at $169.00 shipped) is this a better way to go than say a 4-way ocean motions valve scheme?
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dnellans
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 8:25pm |
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i think my setup is very different than most peoples. i don't turn them on and off very frequently, they are on a 12 hours cycle... think tidal flow not wavemakers.
i would be worried about burning them out cycling them very frequenctly, like less than 15 minutes, longer than that i wouldn't really think its so bad.
the duration is totally dependant on what you want to get going on in your tank....
pumps versus ocean motion scheme is totally dependant on what duration of pulsing you want to achieve.
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Spbeyond
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Posted: May 25 2006 at 11:14pm |
Just had to add that I saw El Vato's tank with Steve Burton the other day. It is looking so good. I am so jealous of all that water flow.  Keep it up, that reef is on its way to being one of the very best around.
Edited by Spbeyond - May 26 2006 at 12:46am
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: May 26 2006 at 8:43am |
when i feed however the neptune turns on both closed loops and turns off the return pump
Dang that is awesome. Almost worth getting a neptune just for that.
the returns are on one side and the drain plumped on the other (and vice versa) for the closed loop creating a linear flow across the tank.
I liked this idea so much that cross plumbed my tank as well. It is possible I'll alternate the closed loops, but most likely I'll run them both all the time.
is this a better way to go than say a 4-way ocean motions valve scheme?
I'm not an ocean motion fan. But I've never owned one. Check with Silcox to get his opinion.
What are the dimensions of your "wifes" new tank?
I hope I like the flow as much as you do. You can always turn them down, but you can't turn them up. Her tank is 5'x2'x2'. She tells me what she wants it to look like and what she wants to keep. I just end up doing all the work.
Adam
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: June 01 2006 at 10:11am |
Update-
So I now have TWO of the 3,600 gph pumps running closed loop on the 150. I'm sorry to say that the flow isn't what I was hoping for. I should have plumbed the tank for three closed loops. Let that be a lesson, you can never spend too much time planning and preparing.  Adam
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