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timothyuhl 
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 Topic: Budget Live Rock - Where to buy?
Posted: January 18 2004 at 10:56am |
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I'm starting a new tank (my first SW) I have some money, but I want to stretch it far. I know i've seen some places that sell live rock for dirt cheap. I'm taking a dive trip to catalina in the near future, but I cant find any online retailers based out of So. Cal that have great prices on cured/uncured live rock.
I would just buy it online, but i'd rather pick out the rock myself - I want to make sure I get what I need. I swear I've seen a So. Cal retailer before, I just didnt bookmark it and cant find it now. Anyone? Anyone? Anyone know...
Or if someone has any ideas on budget live rock, im open to suggestions. I've read the posts about Utah Aragonite, and I'm weary about it. Mainly because, I'm new and a few of the recommendations have been that ocean cultured live rock is the best bet. I would consider using utah Aragonite when i've got more experience in identifying problems at their early onset.
Thoughts, suggestions, arguments, snide remarks?
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: January 19 2004 at 1:37am |
If I didn't post here to say something about Utah Aragonite Rock, people would probably think I was  . It's okay to be "leary" of UT rock since nobody but us Utahns are able to find and use it. UT Rock is not better than LR, but used in combination with LR, it's just a perfect way to reduce costs and still have a beautiful tank. And it gives you the bragging rights to say you are growing your own reef!
UT Aragonite Rock requires little or No Curing depending on the pieces used, so it can be added in quantities large or small and it immediately becomes home to bacteria and various critters which help the tank right from the start. So, regarding your comment about having to I.D. problems, the UT rock creates no problems but actually helps reduce problems! In fact, the more UT rock in relation to LR, the faster the tank can be stocked!
Sounds crazy but it's true. The reason is because it was formed in the ocean just like the LR harvested from the South Pacific! Because it has no life on it, except some moss and lichen on some pieces (requiring more extensive cleaning), there is practically nothing to die-off, hence nothing to "cycle". Because it was formed as Calcium Carbonate deposits, the major mineral we want in our reef aquariums, it immediately promotes good water quality. It also immediately attracts marine algae and critters that are so essential to a healthy tank.
This pic is of a four month old, 80% UT Rock & UT Sand mini-reef that I like to brag about! Since 8/03 it's been cared for by my 11 year old niece (Hi McKenna) and it's looking better than ever!
Edited by Mark Peterson
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tomason
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Posted: January 19 2004 at 10:30am |
I used all UT rock for my 45 when I set it up last May. I haven't had any problems. I seeded it with GARF Grunge. It is growing coralline algae on it.
BUT, I really don't like it. It's not shaped like real LR. It all looks the same: the rocks have formed in a particular pattern. Also, the pieces are relatively small, so it's hard to get anything but a "pile of rocks" look. That's just my opinion though!!! If you have strong feelings about how you want your LR to look, then it may be worth the money to make sure you get the look you want.
I think the UT rock looks much better in Mark's 10 gallon tank than mine, because the rock size to tank size ratio is greater. The proportions are a better fit. Also, the repetitive nature of the rock's pattern is less pronounced because there's not as much of it.
 Mark Peterson wrote:
In fact, the more UT rock in relation to LR, the faster the tank can be stocked! |
It seems like that could only be true if the LR isn't cured (which is your point, right?). If you get cured LR (I have, and had no testable ammonia), you could stock faster still because the rock already has the bacteria on it, right?
This is the first time I've heard anyone say the UT rock was actually formed in an ocean. I'm not disputing that, I just have only heard other hobbyists say how it was formed. Mark, do you have a source for that? I would like to know how it was formed!
Thanks!
-Tom
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jbruse
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Posted: January 19 2004 at 10:57am |
tomason wrote:
BUT, I really don't like it. It's not shaped like real LR. It all looks the same: the rocks have formed in a particular pattern. Also, the pieces are relatively small, so it's hard to get anything but a "pile of rocks" look. That's just my opinion though!!! [QUOTE=Mark Peterson]In fact, the more UT rock in relation to LR, the faster the tank can be stocked! |
I used about 90% UT Rock in my 125 and if you were to see it by shape & size alone you wouldn't know what was UT and what is "REAL" (Just my opinion) I have a few pieces in my tank that are over 12" long and 8" wide. I guess it all depends on when you got your rock it sounds like it may be slim Pickens left.
-=J=-
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: January 19 2004 at 11:16am |
Good points. The size and structure is an issue, but there are some really large pieces out there too. We just don't bring them in too often.
Most definitely, good cured LR is faster, and already has life on and in it. I especially like LR when it's moved in water from one good aquarium to another!
The UT Aragonite formed in Lake Bonneville, an inland ocean that existed all over most of UT, and much of ID and NV millions of years ago (or so they say  ). Aragonite deposited into rock structure just like the Pacific LR has, according to Calfo and Fenner in their newest book, coming out of saltwater solution to form semi crystal structures of CaCO2 (Calcium Carbonate).
Next time I am out there I need to take a pic of a very interesting area where the entire face of some cliffs of sedimentary rock is covered with Aragonite. We just need a sledge hammer and crowbar to break off pieces. These would add the different (and large rock) look to a large aquarium, as Tomason seems to be sugggesting. Since Tomason is now growing his own LR from lifeless UT aragonite, perhaps in the future he would want to trade or sell cultured UT rock to make room for a larger piece of UT rock?
There are also other large pieces (2-4 feet) embedded in the ground in the same area where we pick up the smaller pieces.
I'm standing on top of those cliffs in these pics looking (almost) east toward SLC:
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seti007
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Posted: January 19 2004 at 12:30pm |
Mark, did we ever have a geologist do a study on the composition of these rocks? I use these in my aquarium quite heavily and everything is thriving. Still we can settle all the debate on weather or not it is good for the reef once and for all by doing a scientific analysis.
Asad
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timothyuhl
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Posted: January 19 2004 at 12:50pm |
LOL - So i'm assuming there are no great (low priced) live rock suppliers within road trip driving distance (600-700 miles)? If I could find someplace to sell it cheap, i wouldnt mind taking a road trip. Thats why i was thinking southern cal. However, the arguments for the aragonite are compelling, i just want to wait untill april to be able to collect it.
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Ryan Willden
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Posted: January 19 2004 at 1:11pm |
timothyuhl wrote:
LOL - So i'm assuming there are no great (low priced) live rock suppliers within road trip driving distance (600-700 miles)?Â
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Well, if you've looked around and haven't found any that we don't already know about, then I'd say no. You have to remember that unless you live close to the coast of Florida, you're not going to find a cheap "importer" of natural live rock because of the cost of importation. There are no natural reefs in Nevada, Idaho, Colorado, California, New Mexico, or Arizona that I am aware of... So unless you drive to Florida, I'm afraid cheap live rock is out of the question. But if you find one, let us know!!! 
The western desert of Utah (Aragonite) usually does not have the kind of snow accumulatiuon that we have here, so you should be able to collect it alot sooner than that. If you want to buy "acceptable" rock that is decent enough for a reef, but is dry (meaning no life) you might try Bird World in Bountiful.
Edited by Ryan Willden
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: January 19 2004 at 5:27pm |
Seti007, The person that brought it to our attention had his buddy in a college Chemistry dept check to see if it was CaCO2 and it is. But of course you were the only one that learned the hard way to stay away from the rock with any turquoise/blue tint. I gave that rock to Suzy at a Pres. Mtg. to have an analysis done but never heard back from her.
Suzy, how is that blue UT rock working out in your new tank? 
Ryan, since you live closer out that way, how much snow do you think there is out at Aragonite and when will the ground be thawed out?
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Suzy
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Posted: January 19 2004 at 5:35pm |
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Hey, Mark! I thought I told you about that rock! I soaked it in
saltwater for about a week, then tested it with an old test kit. It came
out clean. The test kit is old, but it didn't show anything.
I'm loving our Utah rock. We've got 4 tanks full of it!
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timothyuhl
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Posted: January 19 2004 at 7:00pm |
Ryan Willden wrote:
Well, if you've looked around and haven't found any that we don't already know about, then I'd say no. You have to remember that unless you live close to the coast of Florida, you're not going to find a cheap "importer" of natural live rock because of the cost of importation. There are no natural reefs in Nevada, |
I was thinking So. Cal might have something, maybe not. Is there anything wholesale priced in Florida? I could plan a SCUBA trip down there, buy some live rock wholesale and just put it on a plane to myself on the way back. The key here is I want a better price, and the ability to pick out my own rock. If I even get liverock for $3.00 a lb instead of $4.99/lb (for a 180g tank), that will easilly pay for my airfare to Ft. Lauderdale. Hurmn... What would be very cool is to contact a place that cultures it out there, and dive for my own rock. Probably gonna be a no go though, liability and all that crap. Since its a new tank, Cured/Uncured isnt an issue to me. -Tim
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Mark Peterson
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Posted: January 19 2004 at 7:08pm |
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I'm sorry, maybe you did tell me and I forgot. That was a copper test kit, right?
Now I'm even more curious, since it came out clean, is it in a tank?
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tileman
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Posted: January 19 2004 at 9:25pm |
Tim
When I started my tank I went in to the Aquarium and told them that I could get LR off the internet for 3.50lb and they matched the price, so I bought 100lbs of it and I picked it out
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Suzy
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Posted: January 20 2004 at 4:44am |
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[QUOTE=Mark Peterson] I'm sorry, maybe you did tell me and I
forgot. That was a copper test kit, right?
Now I'm even more curious, since it came out clean, is it in a tank?[/
QUOTE]
OOPS! I forgot to add that! Yes, an old copper kit, and I brought it
back to a presidency meeting we had a Kirk's house a long time ago!
I thought I gave it to you! Maybe the Alzheimer's is kicking
in.....What were we talking about?
$350 bucks! Ouch! How can you guys afford all that rock at the
same time?
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djangoboots
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Posted: January 20 2004 at 12:26pm |
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timothyuhl,
There are a lot of places that sell florida LR down there. I would
recomend just doing a LR search on google. I know there's a good
one in Tampa (not really close to Ft. Laud.)and there are sme down
there too (I worked for one in Hallendale) The cheapest ones are the
guys who raise it (from the seabottom) themselves (obviously). I've
seen it for like 2.99 / lb in the summer!
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125g whannabe reef
30g FW w/puffers
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Travis
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Posted: January 20 2004 at 12:32pm |
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I would get some good quality base rock for the bulk and then some live rock to seed the base rock. There are on-line suppliers that sale both live and base rock. HTH
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Carl
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Posted: January 20 2004 at 12:59pm |
Just a thought for starting out aside from ordering off of the internet. There are several LFS around that will give you bulk discounts. It may not get down to internet deals, but then again you can hand pick the rocks instead of crossing your fingers. It was posted earlier that The Aquarium in Sandy will do this and I know from experience that Aquatic Dreams in Ogden will too.
Using Utah rock for base and topping off with LR I paid a total of about $140 to rock my 125-gal tank. Food for thought.
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Meeshi_ma
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Posted: January 20 2004 at 1:08pm |
Somebody on Ebay is offering some beautiful utah lace rock for real cheap. This one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=23735 79671&category=20755
is 17 lbs and is going for $9.99. Its a neat piece of rock and the guy would probably let somebody pick it up.
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Adam Blundell
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Posted: January 20 2004 at 1:16pm |
Lace rock it typically not seen as reef safe rock. I would probably avoid that rock. Looking at those pics, it doesn't look good to me.
Adam
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timothyuhl
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Posted: January 20 2004 at 8:04pm |
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I'm starting to think base rock with seeded live rock on top might be the best *budget* way to go. I'm doing a 180g tank. I'll probably want some LR for my sump as well. I question the porosity of seed rock, I'm thinking the more pores means more surface area which means more beneficial microorganisms. Then again, i wonder if its really quantifiable, one peice of rock to another...
I went to aquatic dreams tonight just before they closed. Their live rock tank looked a little weak. Maybe they have more in the back? It was mostly green (from growth). I've been impressed with Bird World's live rock, but they defend their profit margins fiercely. As others have said, (and as i will most likely do) its best to have a selection of rock from different LFSs & world regions.
I actually got an offer for a wicked cheap florida vacation, and since im a scuba diver I could get something other than liverock out of the trip. What would kick butt is to get one of the live rock companies to let me dive for my own rock - would never happen, but would be fun none-the-less.
Florida is a definite option, and I would get to pick it out myself. Still deciding. I plan on showing up to the February 5th meeting - hopefully I can get more info and pick up some other pointers there as well.
The arguments for (cost) and against (uncertainty) utah rock are compelling. The arguments for liverock (safe bet) and against (cost) are also compelling. I'm usually very slow to make decisions, but the input i've gotten and continue to get is extremely helpful.
-Tim - PS, pardon the spelling and grammar, i wont say im too tired to fix it, just too lazy to care. ;)
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